Autocannon recoil on APCs

[viirusiiseli]

VEHICLES: Updated autocannons on multiple vehicles to have basic recoil.

So, some feedback on the autocannon recoil, I do not understand why this was added.

To start off, watch these videos closely.

VBCI

30mm on bradley chassis

BMP-2M berezhok

As you can see, there is little to no recoil in APCs when firing. This is why I do not understand the need for the added recoils. Yes, it may be immersive to some, but mostly it ruins gameplay.

Furthermore, the push recoil as said before while discussing the DSHK, causes the vehicle it is pushing to move/slide in PR without exception. This leads to complete inaccuracy/ineffectiveness and vehicle sliding on uneven terrains due to how the game and hit registration work along with ping. While sliding due to firing, half or more of your rounds deal no damage, vehicle shifts its position on hills and effectively renders your fired rounds after the first ones useless.

While searching videos for this, I only found BRDM-2 to have significant recoil while its 14.5mm turret was being fired.

BRDM-2 KPVT 14.5mm (Don't take in the BTR-60 part as it's firing a 30mm cannon that the vehicle is not originally designed for.)

Therefore I'm asking for this push recoil to be removed from all the APCs as it hurts gameplay. If requested I will make a video showing how this looks like in-game.

[ComradeHX]

I agree.

Didn't we already have one version add recoil to autocannons...etc. then take it away the patch after?

Why did we repeat the same mistake?

[viirusiiseli]

I agree.

Didn't we already have one version add recoil to autocannons...etc. then take it away the patch after?

Why did we repeat the same mistake?

Yes, this is why I am dumbfounded.

[Pronck]

I agree with you viirus. Even when firing single rounds it takes 1 second after a shot to stabilize and regain your target, very annoying whilst engaging hostile APCs on a far distance while standing on a slope.

[Rhino]

While I wasn't involved in the changes to APC recoil and I agree there is most likley some work to be done there, let me point out a few facts.

Firstly all of your examples are on a firing range platform, which are normally flat, hard surfaces, not like what you find in a combat zone. Secondly most of your examples are tracked vehicles and they are generally much more stable firing platforms than wheeled ones. Last point is that all of your examples are of the vehicle firing with its turret pointing forwards, in its most stable firing position. Naturally when you are firing off to the side of the vehicle, especially whne it comes to wheeled vehicles, its much more unstable.

Its hard to find some good refs of live firing of a vehicle since most of them are from firing ranges, and then ones from combat are normally too low quality and or, don't show what is happening very well. This video of the Scimi Mk2 however at the start dose show quite a bit of recoil in it, even with it firing forwards (but on a sandy surface), and the crew say in the video its a more stable vehicle than the mk1 (we have ingame): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlgZvD6AMvw

Also this VBCI Video at 50secs show quite a bit of recoil from the HUD perspective even thou it is again firing directly forwards, although on a sandy surface: https://youtu.be/jQuUptvcDxo?t=50

As such I don't believe the recoil from APC auto cannons should be totally removed.


That being said thou it probably dose need quite a bit of tweaking and toning down since the BF2's Wheel/Track grip system is pretty awful as we all know and nothing like in r/l with vehicles sliding all over the place like they are on ice.... On top of that I think currently we have the same recoil settings for both tracked and wheeled vehicles which probably needs to be tweaked too so tracked vehicles have less recoil to simulate them being a more stable platform, with also taking into account the vehicles mass a bit more in the recoil settings as well since naturally, the heavier the vehicle the less impact the recoil is going to have on it.


I've only played one round gunning an APC (BTR-80A and BTR-80) and I didn't find the recoil all that bad myself. We did have to re-positions the vehicle quite a few times after shooting since we where firing down a hill and the recoil pushed us back so I couldn't lower my barrel enough, but other than that I didn't really find a problem with it, considering it was a wheeled vehicle with a 30mm cannon.

[Barbrady]

I agree, why would APCs with 8 to 32 tons weight have noticeable recoil. Haven't seen it ingame yet though.

[tankninja1]

I have used the LAV 25, LAV 3, BMP 2, BTR 80A, BTR 80, Bradley, Scorpion, Beast MTLB, and Puma post update and haven't had any accuracy or damage problems.

Oddly noticed that the lighter Beast MTLB is less effected by recoil than the BMP 2.

Honestly I have learned to never park on slopes because even before this patch many vehicles had problems with sliding everywhere.

[ComradeHX]

I have used the LAV 25, LAV 3, BMP 2, BTR 80A, BTR 80, Bradley, Scorpion, Beast MTLB, and Puma post update and haven't had any accuracy or damage problems.

Oddly noticed that the lighter Beast MTLB is less effected by recoil than the BMP 2.

Honestly I have learned to never park on slopes because even before this patch many vehicles had problems with sliding everywhere.

Accuracy isn't the problem; sliding is.

Parking on top of hill tends to get you shot from every direction.

Parking on the obviously sloped side of hill lets you not get shot from one side, for the most part.

There should be no recoil, it's a gameplay thing(so vehicles don't slide when firing as if parked on ice) if not more realistic.

[viirusiiseli]

Firstly all of your examples are on a firing range platform, which are normally flat, hard surfaces, not like what you find in a combat zone. Secondly most of your examples are tracked vehicles and they are generally much more stable firing platforms than wheeled ones. Last point is that all of your examples are of the vehicle firing with its turret pointing forwards, in its most stable firing position. Naturally when you are firing off to the side of the vehicle, especially whne it comes to wheeled vehicles, its much more unstable.

Yes, they are from stable surfaces but you can see there is no visible recoil. So even on uneven and soft surfaces it should not be what it is in PR (broken, too big, making the vehicle slide like crazy). The push recoil is broken and should not be implemented in PR because despite the tweaks and fixes you might promise, the sliding issue wont be fixed. Vehicles will slide crazy on hills and APC gameplay will be broken, for what worth? Just so we can have cool recoil for APCs?

Its hard to find some good refs of live firing of a vehicle since most of them are from firing ranges, and then ones from combat are normally too low quality and or, don't show what is happening very well. This video of the Scimi Mk2 however at the start DOES show quite a bit of recoil in it, even with it firing forwards (but on a sandy surface), and the crew say in the video its a more stable vehicle than the mk1 (we have ingame)

Yes, scimitar. Perfect example of APC recoil isn't it? Light recon vehicle with an oversized cannon. Weighs 7.8 tonnes. 30mm cannon. This is probably the worst example. Recoil for scimitar is still fine for me, it's a small vehicle with a large cannon. Don't extend that to other APCs with completely different weight-cannon ratios though.

Also this VBCI Video at 50secs show quite a bit of recoil from the HUD perspective even thou it is again firing directly forwards, although on a sandy surface:

I can say with fairly good certainty that the "recoil" you see is the video camera / gunners screen shaking rather than the APC itself moving. The movement and shaking seems to not be the whole APC shaking. Not exactly any kind of proof.

As such I don't believe the recoil from APC auto cannons should be totally removed.

That being said thou it probably dose need quite a bit of tweaking and toning down since the BF2's Wheel/Track grip system is pretty awful as we all know and nothing like in r/l with vehicles sliding all over the place like they are on ice.... On top of that I think currently we have the same recoil settings for both tracked and wheeled vehicles which probably needs to be tweaked too so tracked vehicles have less recoil to simulate them being a more stable platform, with also taking into account the vehicles mass a bit more in the recoil settings as well since naturally, the heavier the vehicle the less impact the recoil is going to have on it.

I've only played one round gunning an APC (BTR-80A and BTR-80) and I didn't find the recoil all that bad myself. We did have to re-positions the vehicle quite a few times after shooting since we where firing down a hill and the recoil pushed us back so I couldn't lower my barrel enough, but other than that I didn't really find a problem with it, considering it was a wheeled vehicle with a 30mm cannon.

You say you will "tweak and tone it down". All I hear is it'll be smaller recoil but the original problem still persists. Vehicles will still slide. It will still be unrealistically bad.

You also bring up different recoils for wheeled/tracked vehicles, doesn't seem to be a big difference as I have seen neither with large recoil. Only recoil I see are in BTR-60s with 30mms or scimitar with 30mm. It's those and the ones with actual cannons, eg BMP-3 100mm or scorpion 76mm

FV101 Scorpion

BTR-80A

BTR-80A

BTR-80A

I don't even see the wheels moving for crying out loud.

[tankninja1]

BTR-80A

This one you can see the rear suspension flinch, but it so little I'm really just splitting hairs here.

Unrelated but in the first BTR 80 video the 30mm cannon looks like it is made of rubber when it is firing.

[ComradeHX]

This one you can see the rear suspension flinch, but it so little I'm really just splitting hairs here.

Unrelated but in the first BTR 80 video the 30mm cannon looks like it is made of rubber when it is firing.

Barrel vibrates when firing, I don't see the problem.

[Rhino]

I'm not going to go into a massive debate with you on this viirusiiseli. Yes, BF2's physcis are screwy so we can't represent recoil 100% realistically w/e we do, but the fact of the matter is every action has an equal and opposite reaction, and it is worth trying to represent as best as we can and I agree, it needs some tweaking to get there.

Yes, scimitar. Perfect example of APC recoil isn't it? Light recon vehicle with an oversized cannon. Weighs 7.8 tonnes. 30mm cannon.

Actually if you looked, that is the Scimitar Mk2, which uses a modified Spartan armoured personnel carrier's hull with the Scimis 30mm turret slapped on it, as well as many other upgrades, and ends up at 13 tonnes, not including the 4 crew it can take in the back of it, much like a LAV-25, which also weighs 13 tonnes, but only has a 25mm cannon, but doesn't have tracks.

Scimitar:


Scimitar Mk2:

[pedrooo14]

I watched videos of APC?s on combat from the turret operator position and the vehicle do shakes a lot. And he is looking on a little screen attached to the vehicle structure. Wich I guess it make even more difficult to aim properly. I like how it is now, there is no more APC-Rape Fest, with a sniper precision. It s more realistic and fun for infantry.

[ComradeHX]

I watched videos of APC?s on combat from the turret operator position and the vehicle do shakes a lot. And he is looking on a little screen attached to the vehicle structure. Wich I guess it make even more difficult to aim properly. I like how it is now, there is no more APC-Rape Fest, with a sniper precision. It s more realistic and fun for infantry.

Are you joking?

APC wasn't supposed to fire long bursts with autocannons anyway, effectiveness of autocannon only got better when people were forced to shoot more bursts so they don't overheat.

[viirusiiseli]

Rhino;2075658']I'm not going to go into a massive debate with you on this viirusiiseli. Yes, BF2's physcis are screwy so we can't represent recoil 100% realistically w/e we do, but the fact of the matter is every action has an equal and opposite reaction, and it is worth trying to represent as best as we can and I agree, it needs some tweaking to get there.



Actually if you looked, that is the Scimitar Mk2, which uses a modified Spartan armoured personnel carrier's hull with the Scimis 30mm turret slapped on it, as well as many other upgrades, and ends up at 13 tonnes, not including the 4 crew it can take in the back of it, much like a LAV-25, which also weighs 13 tonnes, but only has a 25mm cannon, but doesn't have tracks.

Scimitar:


Scimitar Mk2:

Lets make it simple then. Recoil is kept, gameplay is broken. Recoil removed, gameplay good, realism takes a very tiny hit. For me the decision would be easy.

[tankninja1]

Little spreadsheet I'm working on. It determines the resultant momentum of the various rounds fired from various vehicles, and approximate speed of the vehicle after a round is fired, assuming the vehicles is sitting on a frictionless surface. From most of what I have seen so far the recoil effect on the total vehicle in most cases is almost irrelevant, and considering these numbers are almost certainly an overestimation this is interesting. Little help on finding some values would be much appreciated.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14wh5ciFqYwGFbK-By-7KzrqNnbimvIndIx9UuIzgKY8/edit?usp=sharing

[pedrooo14]

Are you joking?

APC wasn't supposed to fire long bursts with autocannons anyway, effectiveness of autocannon only got better when people were forced to shoot more bursts so they don't overheat.

I dont see your point.
Say what ever you want, the APCs before 1.3 where, for infantry, a almost invencible super termal vision sniper cannon presicion killing machine. Wich used to get A LOT of kills. Now, maybe because of new people how dont use them properly and maybe because of this the game is a little more balanced.

And also, please, stop bitching about every single modification of this version around the forum. Not all the people thinks like you.

[ComradeHX]

I dont see your point.
Say what ever you want, the APCs before 1.3 where, for infantry, a almost invencible super termal vision sniper cannon presicion killing machine. Wich used to get A LOT of kills. Now, maybe because of new people how dont use them properly and maybe because of this the game is a little more balanced.

And also, please, stop bitching about every single modification of this version around the forum. Not all the people thinks like you.

You don't see my point?

The point is that APC are as effective as ever, or MORE.

Now they are even BETTER because thermals + smoke == infantry can't even retaliate.
A little bit of recoil actually helps people overheat less(because they spend a little more time on putting sights back on target instead of holding down fire button).

Not all people think; you are the living proof.

If you wanted screen shake; that's an entirely different thing...put that in suggestions section.

[Mats391]

Lets make it simple then. Recoil is kept, gameplay is broken. Recoil removed, gameplay good, realism takes a very tiny hit. For me the decision would be easy.

How about we keep the recoil and just tweak it? This is in no way a black and white thing. I think the recoil is mostly fine, just a bit too high.

[ComradeHX]

How about we keep the recoil and just tweak it? This is in no way a black and white thing. I think the recoil is mostly fine, just a bit too high.

The problem is that it causes unrealistic sliding.

Go ahead and keep the recoil(but adjusted), but sliding needs to go.
Could also remove recoil on tracked vehicles to give some tangible advantage on uneven terrains.