Excessive amount of LATs

Frontliner
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Re: Excessive amount of LATs

Post by Frontliner »

ComradeHX wrote:So why shouldn't infantry get more LAT?
So you are saying there should be more AT-4's?
Have you been reading?
Don't bother answering.

No, you haven't; because you would know the answer if you have.
Obviously the answer is more LATs for any faction but America because reasons.




I feel the need to point out that this was sarcasm.
He's just saying the wrong things on purpose.
No, he's not. He's asking you a simple yes or no question and isn't passive-aggressive about it - unlike you. I already quoted the part that can lead to confusion, but I believe the answer is
-we would've needed more LATs compared to 1.2 because APCs have been buffed in 1.3 but since
-we already do get more LATs
-we do not need more AT-4s than the current amount because they're easy to use and quite effective but rather lower the amount(which I'm not sure to be doable unless each army gets their own setup for special kits) because they're such a big problem on Muttrah(....well that's one map out of 40+)

There, I'm even answering it for you, now play nice and apologize.

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ComradeHX
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Re: Excessive amount of LATs

Post by ComradeHX »

Frontliner wrote:Obviously the answer is more LATs for any faction but America because reasons.




I feel the need to point out that this was sarcasm.



No, he's not. He's asking you a simple yes or no question and isn't passive-aggressive about it - unlike you. I already quoted the part that can lead to confusion, but I believe the answer is
-we would've needed more LATs compared to 1.2 because APCs have been buffed in 1.3 but since
-we already do get more LATs
-we do not need more AT-4s than the current amount because they're easy to use and quite effective but rather lower the amount(which I'm not sure to be doable unless each army gets their own setup for special kits) because they're such a big problem on Muttrah(....well that's one map out of 40+)

There, I'm even answering it for you, now play nice and apologize.

PS: If I'm wrong, say so and where.
So it's so obvious that more LAT in general(after APC buffed in 1.3) == good but AT-4 == bad.

I don't think you needed to do the spoonfeeding.
Navo
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Re: Excessive amount of LATs

Post by Navo »

What have I started
blayas
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Re: Excessive amount of LATs

Post by blayas »

The time to return to pool these should be increased , even if their quantities are reduced , all special kit should be considered important and crucial for survival of his team , his loss should result in consequences ( like getting five minutes without lat ) the same principle was applied to vehicles that now takes 20 minutes to return .
30 seconds for a lat return completely withdraws its value and the importance that he should get .
[GER]Birnd
Posts: 63
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Re: Excessive amount of LATs

Post by [GER]Birnd »

Ive driven alot of APCs since 1.3 and i havent even noticed the change. If ur close and the sourroundings are dense infantry has the better chances, far and open favors the apcs.

I think the change is good. In 1.2 there was often no Lat Kit available and u had APCs circling around close Range and could do nothing about it. Made ur whole Squad useless cowards with no means to fight back. Boring.

On another Topic:
The ATGM Launch delay for the AT Emplacements is problematic, u can easily kill the Emplacement with an APC now before it can fire. Plus the Firing Sound gets played when u start pressing LMB, giving ur position away.
My ingame name is [WGP]ARC*[GER]Birnd
viirusiiseli
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Re: Excessive amount of LATs

Post by viirusiiseli »

'[GER wrote:Birnd;2083377']I think the change is good. In 1.2 there was often no Lat Kit available and u had APCs circling around close Range and could do nothing about it. Made ur whole Squad useless cowards with no means to fight back. Boring..

That meant your teams LATs were garbage and your team should be getting pwned. Instead of getting handouts.
[GER]Birnd
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Re: Excessive amount of LATs

Post by [GER]Birnd »

Well, thats only ur opinion. Its easy enough to get 70+ kills with a single apc in this patch.
My ingame name is [WGP]ARC*[GER]Birnd
ComradeHX
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Re: Excessive amount of LATs

Post by ComradeHX »

viirusiiseli wrote:That meant your teams LATs were garbage and your team should be getting pwned. Instead of getting handouts.
If APC get shot by same squad that it killed(after respawn) then APC crew is garbage and your APC sqd should be getting pwned. Instead of getting handouts.
'[GER wrote:Birnd;2083377']
On another Topic:
The ATGM Launch delay for the AT Emplacements is problematic, u can easily kill the Emplacement with an APC now before it can fire. Plus the Firing Sound gets played when u start pressing LMB, giving ur position away.
Yeah, it's also not realistic.
People can spawn LMB and make very annoying noises on ATGM.
viirusiiseli
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Re: Excessive amount of LATs

Post by viirusiiseli »

ComradeHX wrote:If APC get shot by same squad that it killed(after respawn) then APC crew is garbage and your APC sqd should be getting pwned. Instead of getting handouts.
You're saying in that post that if a squad with their handouts kills an APC (=getting 2 shots at it instead of 1 by dying and respawning) it's the APC crew whos bad, not the LAT system? Ok.

This system does not work (or atleast provides an unrealistic way of operating in the game). I will explain why. A guy has a LAT, is relatively close to a FOB and therefore a crate. The two most popular choices in this situation when an APC attacks are

1. Find a good hidden spot to fire off the LAT without risking yourself too much, so you can survive and eventually reload to possibly destroy said APC. (e.g. if you immobilize him)
2. Run straight toward the APC, take your shot accurately provided by good LAT deviation, die to the APC after taking a suicide shot. Respawn on firebase with a new LAT, take another shot at APC.

And though the APC crew in this example is one that doesn't run away right away after getting hit, you can see how the system could encourage dying over reloading. Which doesn't really belong in PR.

And Comrade: what priceline said earlier is 100% on point. You seem to try to insult people more and be aggressive than to get the discussion going forward. Any time someone replies to a thread with anything that doesn't fit your opinion you tend to spit an aggressive comment, then when told you're being what you are you parade around saying you're right because they commented on your aggressiveness instead of your content.

That's not how the world works.
Last edited by viirusiiseli on 2015-07-01 10:27, edited 6 times in total.
PatrickLA_CA
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Re: Excessive amount of LATs

Post by PatrickLA_CA »

IMO 2 LATs per squad should be fine. Right now they are too many and it's a pain in the *** to even want to take an APC to support the infantry on most maps where you'll have to go closer to the enemy.
2 LATs per squad will mean that said squad will still have the power to take out an APC, but they'll have to be careful how they do it, instead of just run, shoot, respawn, repeat.
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ComradeHX
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Re: Excessive amount of LATs

Post by ComradeHX »

viirusiiseli wrote:You're saying in that post that if a squad with their handouts kills an APC (=getting 2 shots at it instead of 1 by dying and respawning) it's the APC crew whos bad, not the LAT system? Ok.

This system does not work (or atleast provides an unrealistic way of operating in the game). I will explain why. A guy has a LAT, is relatively close to a FOB and therefore a crate. The two most popular choices in this situation when an APC attacks are

1. Find a good hidden spot to fire off the LAT without risking yourself too much, so you can survive and eventually reload to possibly destroy said APC. (e.g. if you immobilize him)
2. Run straight toward the APC, take your shot accurately provided by good LAT deviation, die to the APC after taking a suicide shot. Respawn on firebase with a new LAT, take another shot at APC.

And though the APC crew in this example is one that doesn't run away right away after getting hit, you can see how the system could encourage dying over reloading. Which doesn't really belong in PR.

And Comrade: what priceline said earlier is 100% on point. You seem to try to insult people more and be aggressive than to get the discussion going forward. Any time someone replies to a thread with anything that doesn't fit your opinion you tend to spit an aggressive comment, then when told you're being what you are you parade around saying you're right because they commented on your aggressiveness instead of your content.

That's not how the world works.
I'm letting you know how bad your post look by posting similarly offensive post in similar format.

If APC is close to FOB, you are supposed to either DESTROY FOB or get away... not sit in same spot to try to kill someone twice...
And if you can't destroy the fob now with huge delays of ATGM...it's even less skilled to just sit in same spot... Do you camp in one building all game as infantry?

Guess what? APC is supposed to rtb or at least get some repairs in field after 1 hit with lat...
If you decide to stay, you put yourself at risk of dying instantly to 2nd shot...and that is working as intended...seeing as how the vast majority of LAT kits do not give you a 2nd shot.

You are also assuming there isn't another LAT from another squad heading to you; in which case no amount of complaint about "availability" will help you.

Stop calling kettle black.

You know I'm right; that's why there is so much hole in your "argument."

That is indeed not how the world works.
Last edited by ComradeHX on 2015-07-01 15:54, edited 4 times in total.
Archosaurus
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Re: Excessive amount of LATs

Post by Archosaurus »

So wait, the, what, 4 or so IFV's that my Insurgent squad destroyed, when playing on a losing match on a horrible team in Fallujah, were just made up and OPFOR LAT's are ****?
ComradeHX
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Re: Excessive amount of LATs

Post by ComradeHX »

Archosaurus wrote:So wait, the, what, 4 or so IFV's that my Insurgent squad destroyed, when playing on a losing match on a horrible team in Fallujah, were just made up and OPFOR LAT's are ****?
No, it means BluFor attracts noobs.

RPG-7 is great.

RPG-26 is ****.
MikeDude
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Re: Excessive amount of LATs

Post by MikeDude »

As a APC/Tank whore myself. I don't think there is too many LATs at all. Yes, it's difficult to stay alive, and so it should be. Otherwise APCs will just become another OP asset like CAS has always been.

If you are careful/gud enough and your team is capable to communicate well. You will still rek a lot of shit.
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ComradeHX
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Re: Excessive amount of LATs

Post by ComradeHX »

MikeDude wrote:As a APC/Tank whore myself. I don't think there is too many LATs at all. Yes, it's difficult to stay alive, and so it should be. Otherwise APCs will just become another OP asset like CAS has always been.

If you are careful/gud enough and your team is capable to communicate well. You will still rek a lot of shit.
Yeah, some people drive APC thinking they are tanks...
mat552
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Re: Excessive amount of LATs

Post by mat552 »

ComradeHX wrote:Yeah, some people drive APC thinking they are tanks...
That is how they function in PR, light tanks. They cost too much in respawn time and tickets to use as actual transports.
Players might be hardcoded, but that sure doesn't seem to stop anybody from trying.


The only winning move is not to play. Insurgency, that is.
ComradeHX
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Re: Excessive amount of LATs

Post by ComradeHX »

mat552 wrote:That is how they function in PR, light tanks. They cost too much in respawn time and tickets to use as actual transports.
Not all APC cost the same and not all APC have the same armour/weapons.

Some, like MTLB(7.62 and 12.7), are poorly armoured and barely better than a technical.
They are very much disposable and are numerous or spawn fast enough to use to transport infantry.

Some, like BTR-60, are still poorly armoured yet have decent guns(now with HE-I rounds for better anti-infantry capabilities).
They can also transport infantry, and could use infantry in front to reduce chance of getting hit by LAT.

Some, like ZSL-92A, are decently armoured(2 hit kill by pretty much any lat) yet still lacking firepower.
They are good for infantry transport.

Some, like LAV-25, have low-firerate autocannons.
They could use infantry support especially when facing APC with faster-firing autocannons(below).

---(below is what could function as light tanks)---

Some, like ZSL-92(with 25mm autocannon), can function as light IFV(still better than LAV...etc.).
This is the point where APC may not need infantry; or at least it would be a lot better to hunt down enemy APC...etc. before starting to carry infantry around.

Anything with better weaponry(such as IFVs with ATGM) makes decision to ferry infantry to/from frontline a more complicated one.
Last edited by ComradeHX on 2015-07-01 19:21, edited 4 times in total.
Acecombatzer0
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Re: Excessive amount of LATs

Post by Acecombatzer0 »

mat552 wrote:That is how they function in PR, light tanks. They cost too much in respawn time and tickets to use as actual transports.
They are Armored Personal Carriers, they are meant to transport Infantry into battle and support them as necessary. If a APC is more than 500m from fellow INF (in most cases) you are not playing it right IMO.

I hate it when the AAVs on Muttrah are way ahead of the main force and hunting FOBs and killing other APCs, and mowing down INF with the .50 cals in Mk19s, that is completely unrealistic and not what the AAV are remotely intended for.

MTLBs are primarily transport too, think of it as a glorified amphibious techie, APC squads should not use these to "lone-wolf" and farm kills from far away.
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mat552
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Re: Excessive amount of LATs

Post by mat552 »

Acecombatzer0 wrote:They are Armored Personal Carriers, they are meant to transport Infantry into battle and support them as necessary. If a APC is more than 500m from fellow INF (in most cases) you are not playing it right IMO.

I hate it when the AAVs on Muttrah are way ahead of the main force and hunting FOBs and killing other APCs, and mowing down INF with the .50 cals in Mk19s, that is completely unrealistic and not what the AAV are remotely intended for.

MTLBs are primarily transport too, think of it as a glorified amphibious techie, APC squads should not use these to "lone-wolf" and farm kills from far away.
See, the thing is, most APC drivers have tried this at one time or another. Most of them really do. They do their best to support infantry, cohesively follow with fire, provide cover, all that jazz. It loses its luster real quick for two reasons.

The first is that infantry is just ridiculously more mobile in an urban environment while also being tediously slow in an open one. Yes, realism, wonderful. Boring as hell in a video game. Eventually this will create an underlying (or outright!) attention problem in most of the people still playing this game and they will want to stray further and further in the guise of overwatch.

The second is that APCs are in an odd place in terms of vulnerability to firepower ratio. The proliferation of AT weapons from mines to large bore emplacements in PR means you never know for sure if turning a corner or edging out of a forest is going to kill you. Long term this will make anybody with two brain cells to rub together kind of cagey about staying in one place for too long, APCs are actually less survivable as a whole relative to the weapons employed to kill them and their available cover. As a follow on, if you're a lone APC playing mechanized infantry you are probably going to be murdered in a dark alley way by a roving gang of the enemy's APCs behaving like light tanks and there is typically nothing you, your cannon, and your squad's one mobile AT asset are going to do about it.

PR doesn't really support realism in tactics. It tries with some pretty interesting solutions, but ultimately it can't. There's no fear of death, so the best that can be done with suppression is to mess up your screen. Vehicles never break down due to lack of maintenance. The very concept of a magic fog that becomes impenetrable X meters away even in late afternoon in the middle of the desert is a game introduction, one that PR is built around on a mechanical level. I am still under the belief that in the long term it has caused more problems than it has solved to make vehicles cost tickets and to give them respawn times measured in geological epochs. The gameplay involved already makes it difficult and unattractive to play follow on support with mechanized assets before you start adding meta penalties.

The end consequence of all of that? It makes more sense for APCs to roam as a pack and look for infantry or other light vehicles to dispose of. At the end of the match you owe your team more tickets than you cost them, it's not worth dying 16 times to capture a flag you don't hold. You won't make that quota if you lose the APC be sticking its snout where it shouldn't go every time it spawns and you can't wait for the infantry to clear every window and doorframe before rounding a corner.

I don't know at this point if it's possible to introduce or remove any mechanism or group of mechanisms and get people to play "realistically" with this or any other asset.
Last edited by mat552 on 2015-07-02 15:40, edited 2 times in total.
Players might be hardcoded, but that sure doesn't seem to stop anybody from trying.


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fatalsushi83
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Re: Excessive amount of LATs

Post by fatalsushi83 »

I have to agree with Acecombat in the sense that APC squads should communicate with inf and be responsive to their needs. That's doesn't mean they should sit in the same spot and take all their cues from the infantry. It just means that if inf asks for support, and the APCs aren't tied up with something, they should do what they can to help. For example, trying to take an occupied T-building on Muttrah with on one squad is usually suicide but if you coordinate with an APC and have it put HE rounds in all the windows, it gives you a huge advantage. Unfortunately, some APC SLs don't give a damn about infantry or the flags, and focus solely on hunting enemy armor and racking up kills. Those are the real armor whores.
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