To Roadblock or Not To Roadblock

[RAWSwampFox]

Good Evening,

I am simply amazed at times, then again I'm not, by the number of very "vocal" people who scream, holler, moan, groan, and call names when their access to the cache is taken away by a roadblock. Change is something that is the nature of the PR beast and it seems that most players do not like change unless they have to do less work.

My opinion -

Roadblocks are a very valid and necessary counter-balance to ninja's and ghosters. While it requires people to actually re-think their tactics and strategies, I feel that it is a valued addition to PR. I strongly feel that roadblocks that actually fully block access to the cache prohibiting a "walk in the park" for the enemy to place C4 on it is a valid strategy. I have had very heated discussions with various players that feel that they "must" have access to the cache at all times and that I'm a ________ <fill in blank> because I do use roadblocks. All I ask of those who think contrary to my opinion, take some time and actually seriously observe in a detailed way how beneficial roadblocks are. I have watched caches stay up for 15 minutes without anyone defending the cache because of roadblocks. When they are used and if the rest of the team realizes that they are delaying the enemy, I have seen successful counter-assaults that drive out the enemy from the area.

Your thought?

[ComedyInK]

If your putting the road block inside buildings or using it to cover up the cache, then you are a ****, and you deserve the hate.

[fatalsushi83]

Even before the introduction of roadblocks redfor won more often. Now its even more unbalanced in favor of the insurgents. I really like how the roadblocks give more strategic options to the redfor squad leaders but they shouldn't be deployable within 20 or more meters of the cache. It's just unbalanced and frustrating.

And I hope that no one brings up the "blufor have superior weapons" or "they just need to change their tactics" argument because it's actually much more difficult playing as a blufor squad leader. You have to be really careful about your squad not losing tickets and coordinate with other squads to surround the caches. Insurgent just need to built 2 or 3 decent hideouts and keep throwing bodies at the cache, no coordination or strategy required. Insurgency is like zombie survival mode for blufor except the zombies shoot you with machine guns and drive exploding cars. I don't think they don't need the added benefit of being able to bury their caches in huge mounds of dirt.

[Frontliner]

Basically what the others said. You play in an exceptionally cheap and abusive manner, where's the fun in that? As much as I'm usually driven by my competetive spirit to do everything to win, cache blocking and other borderline forbidden dickish tactics(such as R(PG)-tillery, which abuses the infinite cache ammo) cannot be found in my arsenal(not that you usually need to as INS - civi spam 4 lyef and 3 hideouts is all you need) because that goes against my understanding of fair play.

I have had very heated discussions with various players that feel that they "must" have access to the cache at all times and that I'm a ________ <fill in blank> because I do use roadblocks.

Other people seem to understand fair play, why don't you? Whether those were other INS players or the BluFor guys I don't know, but it only makes sense to play if the opponent has a chance to do so. If you act like a ****, you will be referred to as such.

[UTurista]

I admit that I play very little insurgency and when I play rarely see road blocks being used "improperly" but in theory the only game play I see this tactics promoting is forcing the attackers to control the area before killing the cache.

If before was possible to sneak in with a single guy and get the cache, now you really need to have a full squad controlling the area., once you have APCs and squads (<--- plural ) closing the reinforcements you can start killing those roadblocks and eventually the cache.

[PatrickLA_CA]

The problem why BLUFOR is not winning on INS map is not because of the roadblocks. It's because in most of the INS games I've played lately there are 2 infantry squads actually doing their job, 1 free kits squad, absolutely no FOBs or a single FOB on a bad location, and the APC squad is off doing their own thing somewhere on the other side of the map instead of covering the infantry squads while they advance on the cache from different sides.

I don't think there's anything that the INS can do while the APC is shooting HE from distance on their position while 2 infantry squads are moving in from two flanks at the same time.

BLUFOR should stop playing Defensively and take up the offensive. Too many times I've seen a super fob being defended by the whole team instead of hunting the enemy.

Roadblocks are a great way to defend a cache, and no I don't mean placing them on top of the cache. That should be considered glitching, oh an it can also blow the cache up.

[tankninja1]

You do tend to overuse them. I wish I could find that screenshot where you completely boxed in the cashe on bashra. Also unrelated to swampfox

[Strategos]

Exactly what Patrick said. The only reason BLUFOR isn't winning as much is because of the influx of new players and less strategic gameplay. OPFOR can get away with slightly worse teamplay than BLUFOR, and that's why newbies with a less tactical approach hurt one side more than the other. This is an issue not inherent to the game mode, but part of the current meta game. Hopefully this will settle over the next few months as more and more players adjust to what PR is actually about.

As far as complaining about the changes is concerned, I think you all forget how frustrating playing INS on 1.2 could be. The asymmetrical gameplay just lended itself to a bad experience if you didn't adjust your playstyle to the situation, and sadly, more often than not, BLUFOR would win on sheer weapons superiority alone while INS would just be acting stupidly. Roadblocks on 1.3 introduced a new tactical tool to the INS squadleaders' arsenal that a.) encourages INS players to think and play more strategically and b.) forces BLUFOR to adjust their playstyle. It's not about the number of assets you can throw at a cache, or the number of civies you can throw at BLUFOR anymore, insurgency is now about tactics and area control again.

[DesmoLocke]

I don't think there's anything that the INS can do while the APC is shooting HE from distance on their position while 2 infantry squads are moving in from two flanks at the same time.

Wrong. If I had access to the cache to reload my RPG, I could destroy the APC and inflict some serious pain on infantry.

[Strategos]

That's the thing, though. Most players don't have a clue how to use an RPG properly, especially at larger distances.

[PatrickLA_CA]

Well if the APC is shooting HE at you (and you are on the cache location) and you are constantly in the suppression state or maybe even injured, you won't be able to see the APC if it is far.

[Rudd]

I don't like roadblocks ON the cache because imo that's clearly an exploit which is unrealistic (you don't stuff your weapons into slimy garbage...)

However, I do recognise that some caches should probably be removed because they are in bad places, and I recognise that it has a clear anti-ninja role. So I say nay at this time, but I'd like to see the discussion move to more anti ninja areas, perhaps the cache should require a command detonnated C4 (or multiple command detonated C4) for example.

[Jevski]

Mostly its due to bluefor not having a clue. Lately we have on HOG been playing Basrah inf. And opfor wins everytime, and why is that? Inf has no clue of fire and movement, all I see is this blue blob moving in towards the cache like pearls on a string.

What I dont see is flanking. Fireteams, suppresive fire, HMG build to provide firesupport, rallys, fob hunting.

And yes roadblocks have been used but rarely the enemy comes close. Above behaviour of bluefor just becomes so much more clear when roadblocks are actually used wisely.

The general population of pr has just lost 50 iq points in my opinion lately.

Roadblocks on caches might not be realistic, but it somewhat evens out that you cant hide the caches.

as in:




Not all weapon caches in real life are neatly placed on a clean floor.

[RAWSwampFox]

Good Evening,

I am a bit surprised but then again not, by the attacks on myself. While I may have opened the door with my original post, why attack me instead of providing thoughtful responses? That aside, regardless of how you feel about me, I would love to hear and see more thoughtful responses. I acknowledge the positions of those players, whether I agree with them or not is neither here nor there.

Outside of the above, I see both issues and am somewhat torn about the whole thing. Please remember that this is a project at reality not true reality.

One post mentioned the "blue blob" that usually assaults a cache with no forethought. I've seen this so so many times. Both sides require teamwork and collaboration. Players, old and new, still feel that they should just assault an objective by sheer numbers and win because of that one strategy. Armor never truly works with infantry, the vast majority of the time, but when they do, OMG, they make the team extremely deadly. The other side of that coin is that infantry never works with armor, they just demand the impossible that armor support. If they don't support each other, they call each other _______ <fill in the blank>.

One post mentioned that you don't usually find that much trash in a house, have you never watched the TV show "Buried Alive"? Take a look, yes you do find that much trash in the house. Crates shouldn't be allowed inside of buildings, enterable or not. I've seen more FOBS built totally inside of buildings that are not enterable more lately than ever yet it rarely mentioned because it benefits people for it to be inside. The list can go on and on. I take exception to the mention of the term "abuse" because I haven't seen a PR player yet the doesn't "abuse" some game mechanic for their benefit.

I do agree with the absolute "covering" of the cache with roadblocks point to a certain degree. In .97 and 1.x, I have seen a lot of various players cover caches with many types of FOB assets (foxholes, TOW's, etc.) to make it harder for the enemy to gain access to them long before roadblocks were introduced.

I mean you can take this conversation many different ways to attack whoever and whatever but what do you truly think about the roadblocks.

1. Should they be more limited in size?
2. Should they be more limited in number?
3. Should they be weaker in strength?
4. Should they be totally done away with?
5. Is everyone that uses them a ****?

There is one thing I would really love a lot and that is the concept of the DBMod from days past, where there was only one cache to attack at a time. That is not popular with the vast majority so I understand why the compromise was made with the unknown physically not being shown.

A penny for your thoughts....

[Jayhawker2092]

I think it's a cheap tactic. If, as insurgents, you can't get a squad to stay on the cache and ensure that nobody ninjas it, then you deserve to lose. Plain and simple. Beyond that, it keeps your team from resupplying. I know.... "You can stand up here and resupply through!" or something to that accord.... Well, maybe I don't want to stand up on top of this huge, clearly visible trash pile. Further, I just think it's a complete misuse of the of the roadblocks. They were intended to help insurgents block roads and strengthen cover. That's it.

Lastly, a few weeks ago, I had a pretty negative interaction with you Swamp on Gaza. It started when my buddy and I built a small simple roadblock that would help provide cover for watching down an alleyway. It was a perfectly practical use of the roadblock. Then you came along and start loudly asking why we're putting a roadblock here. I explain and you disagree and next thing I know, you're saying "watch this" and trying to educate me (which I don't need) and everyone else around on how to stack roadblocks whilst destroying ours and completely covering the cache. So we said fine and walked away to leave you to do as you pleased. ~15 mins later I've been killed, respawned at the hideout to the east, and am now walking back down the southernmost alleyway back towards the cache and all the barricades. Only, now most of them are gone and there's an israeli there. I kill him and my buddy and I start building new, small barricades around the area. Next thing I know, I'm kicked from the server for "trolling my team". You, some of your squadmates, and the admins you're friendly with assumed that I destroyed your barricades because of our minute long interaction prior in the game where you simply didn't agree with my use of the barricades and that gave you a negative view of me which made you jump to conclusions. The point of this story isn't to call out you or those server admins though. It's simply so that I have an example to back up what I'm going to say next. You hog/covet the barricades so much so that you refuse to allow others to use them as they see fit and are willing to take drastic/rash actions to protect your way of doing things. That was just one example. I have others where you again, have that attitude of "my way or the highway". I've played with you a lot over the years Swamp and I know you're a pretty good guy so don't think there's any hard feelings here or anything. I just hope you'll change your attitude (particularly your monopoly) on the use of barricades.

Edit: I was typing/doing other things while you submitted that last post so I didn't get to answer these.
1. Should they be more limited in size?
The size is fine as long as they aren't stacked.
2. Should they be more limited in number?
I also have no problem with the numbers.
3. Should they be weaker in strength?
Don't really feel strongly either way.
4. Should they be totally done away with?
No. I think they're a valuable addition for ins when used practically.
5. Is everyone that uses them a ****?
I wouldn't say that but I'd say blocking the cache entirely or stacking them so high streets become impassable shows a lack of fair play/integrity.

[granderslice]

Roadblocks are a very valid "area denial" tactic. Insomuch as IEDs and VOIEDS are meant to deny areas of attack, roadblocks are designed to not allow vehicles and personnel into specific areas. With the sudden influx of new players since 1.3, which has been a welcomed addition to and necessary for the survival of PR, players MUST learn to: COMMUNICATE; ORGANIZE; USE SOUND STRATEGIES AND TACTICS; and most of all ----> WORK TOGETHER TO WIN. However, most of the new players are not concerned about winning. Herein lies the problem. For most of the new players PR is about kits and kills and not about teamwork and defeating the opposition. I have played alongside Swamp for many years and seen his game playing develop. He understands that PR is OBJECTIVE-BASED gameplay that requires teamwork and communication in order to win. But I digress.
Most (new) players view the CACHES as a source of weapons (kits) and little else. They have not yet understood that the caches for INSURGENTS determine if the team wins or loses. Roadblocks not only prevent the enemy from a certain area, but actually force the BLUFOR forces to COORDINATE an offensive, ORGANIZE C4 deployments, and COMMUNICATE among the team members specific strategies and tactics that will be most effective. In essence, roadblocks are proving to be frustrating and deterring to BLUFOR - exactly what they are supposed to do.
I admit that SwampFox gets a little carried away with his constructs and sometimes he builds roadblocks that never actually touch a road. I have gotten mad at him for building one of his "trash castles" nowhere near a cache and taking away players from the objective. However, I truly believe roadblocks do serve a purpose as far as area denial and should remain a valid and solid tactic for OPFOR forces on Insurgency game mode. That is all I have to say.

[RAWSwampFox]

Good Evening,

Jayhawker, I apologize for running you over on that map and not valuing your opinions. I am starting to realize that there are some players out there that are actually catching the "vision" so to speak in regards to roadblocks. I guess my priority is to first block the cache which may take all of the 9 slots initially but afterwards only 3 or so remain leaving 5-6 slots for enforcing the area. Using them as a horizontal foxhole is a great use for them. Hiding SPG's - fob or mobile - behind them for ambushing is absolutely fabulous. I rarely see a complete squad, much less two, work together to accomplish a solid goal or strategy. I do get a bit meglomaniac at times, I'm trying to mellow out.

In regards to getting you kicked, while I may be friends with some admins, I'm mostly anti-admin. I don't remember getting you kicked because usually the spotlight is on me as a lot of admins watch me closely. I usually also have shorter strings as in, no warning just a kick.

How does the saying go, all goes in love and war?

[Jolly]

We gonna need some bigger C4!

[RAWSwampFox]

We gonna need some bigger C4!

Good Evening,

No one likes to use the Combat Engi kit but some folks don't realize that 1 C4 satchel does clear a whole lot of roadblocks in one big boom when place correctly. The issue is that people don't want to "control the area" that long to allow time for proper placement. It really does boil down to controlling the area as many people have said including some devs, if not directly but indirectly.

Case and point, I encountered a cache in G4kp7 on Fallujah and the cache was on the patio of the 2 story house there that is kind of a duplex. There were roadblocks everywhere. Me and a few others gained control of the area and I was able to clear out all the roadblocks with all the C4 a combat engi could carry but didn't have the final stick to blow up the cache. Not only do you have to control the area as in armament but also be able to reinforce and resupply the area to accomplish the objective. It's a game and people don't want to work at it sometimes, plain and simple.

[Tiger1]

What granderslice said.
War is not fair. Yes.. I know this is a ''game''. Insurgents use whatever tactics and techniques to make it a bad day for their opponents.

I don't have a problem with insurgents blocking a cache.
I don't think it is ''unfair''. For one, you are denying the opponent entrance into a area which he normally would be able to waltz right into. Secondly it forces the opposing team to communicate, adapt to the situation and get the job done.

My two cents.