General first impression on 1.3.5!

[=-=kittykiller]

I gotta defend the deviation indicator. For a noob, deviation is one of the hardest parts of the game because it's a complicated system with no feedback whatsoever until you fire your weapon. The indicator does lower the skill ceiling, but counting deviation time and knowing which stance is best is a skill that is gained by simply doing lots of boring testing and memorization. Nothing to be proud of, and nothing that I enjoy teaching to new players.

ERRRRRRRRRRRM??? you tell them the lower u go the better the accuracy,lying down is the most accurate. Tell them to grb rifleman and wait 2 secs between shots and not to move the reticle alot.

u make it sound like that takes lots of boring testing?! what u meen learning to get ure aim in with first rifles then later more powerful kits.

[RENEGADO]

I agree in some things on this post...But the deviation i "approve", there is nothing so especial, i was playing right now and didn't make any difference for me (using rifleman/marksman).
C'mon guys, i really don't like this kind of behavior "Oh, there is an indicator telling me when to shoot ! It's gonna break the game !!! " Really ? As much other said, an AR, Sniper, Marksman are always proned for a while or when you see somebody shooting at you, are you going to see if the indicator is correctly for you to shoot back ? , this doesn't make much difference...

[sf17k]

kittykiller, the deviation rules are complicated:

- Lying down is most accurate, except with grenade launchers which seem best crouched, and rocket launchers which seem best standing, iirc.
- Going prone temporarily increases deviation by a large amount. Going unprone does the same, unless you press crouch instead of Z in which case it doesn't affect deviation at all.
- Moving around increases deviation, but it's the time spent moving, not the amount you move or the speed you move at, that counts.
- Aiming around increases deviation, but aiming deviation resets much quicker than movement deviation.
- Firing increases deviation and there is an optimum time between shots that you must memorize, which is different for marksman rifles.
- Different weapons respond to deviation differently. Stuff like marksman rifles, SMGs, pistols, bolt actions, and even various assault rifles all have different accuracy and recoil. I still haven't learned all the ins and outs.

Sure, you don't need to know all that to be effective. It just helps when your squad leader needs you to grab a special kit that you don't have a lot of experience with, or you need to shoot both quickly and accurately to save your life.

[=-=kittykiller]

kittykiller, the deviation rules are complicated:

- Lying down is most accurate, except with grenade launchers which seem best crouched, and rocket launchers which seem best standing, iirc.
- Going prone temporarily increases deviation by a large amount. Going unprone does the same, unless you press crouch instead of Z in which case it doesn't affect deviation at all.
- Moving around increases deviation, but it's the time spent moving, not the amount you move or the speed you move at, that counts.
- Aiming around increases deviation, but aiming deviation resets much quicker than movement deviation.
- Firing increases deviation and there is an optimum time between shots that you must memorize, which is different for marksman rifles.
- Different weapons respond to deviation differently. Stuff like marksman rifles, SMGs, pistols, bolt actions, and even various assault rifles all have different accuracy and recoil. I still haven't learned all the ins and outs.

Sure, you don't need to know all that to be effective. It just helps when your squad leader needs you to grab a special kit that you don't have a lot of experience with, or you need to shoot both quickly and accurately to save your life.

did not know those ruless but i always though part of the experience was getting the feel of the weapon

[sf17k]

I'm seeing the other perspective, too.

As I previously said, it is no longer possible to make any mistakes. It's no longer possible to wait too long or shoot to early. You know exactly when to peek with the AR, when to shoot with the marksman or the sniper.

I agree, it takes the guesswork out of it. And I'm sad about that because it felt cool when you knew what you were doing, and to imagine getting better in the future. Now it's just mechanical, and a little immersion-breaking since my eyes are glued to an indicator instead of relying on intuition.

And yes, you're less likely to survive an AR/marksman thanks to missed shots or shots not taken. So their overall effectiveness is increased, perhaps throwing off PR's delicate balance.

Any time a skill ceiling is lowered, some of the game's depth is lost. And the deviation mechanic has been around for such a long time and it's such a core part of the game that it completely changes the experience for many people. At the same time, it did have its flaws.

Hopefully the fact that deviation is simplified will create new dynamics and thus make up the depth in other areas of the game. This can be aided by extremely careful tweaking to raise the skill ceiling again.

It does seem strange to make such core design decisions after so many years of painstaking refinement, even if it's to make the game more inviting. Well, it's up to the devs. Nothing wrong with an experiment, and if they don't like the results, they can always undo. Or think up something better than either option.

[Scubbo]

grozny is cool and new kashan is great and will be the bomb with the coop layer fixed ^_^ COOP mortars are cool if they work how we think (random spawn at specific placements?!?) the rest I could do without really ! the main fixes I wanted arent there like the L85 not sounding like shit (1.2 had the best L85 sound along with the best pavlosk bay coop layers)

is there any way to get the old server files for 1.2 + client for 1.2 BF2 mod? // will mumble still work? ^_^

[Chefmoto1]

It's just a fucking headache to even play anymore to be honest. All the polish of 1.3 was destroyed by the update. It was supposed to be focused on fixes yet it's not the least stable and buggy version of PR in a long time.

I'm not trying to ***** about the Devs or anything like that, I appreciate what you do for the community. But man, this update just has so many issues. Hope they get fixed soon.

[fatalsushi83]

There is so much depth to PR other than memorizing the nuances of deviation. In the case of MGs and snipers positioning and knowing when to deploy and wait is more important from my experience once you memorize max settle times. And since you know more or less how accurateby your shots are going to be in reality, this deviation marker has actually made the deviation system more realistic imo.

Regarding balance, MGs and snipers should be OP in the right situation. Plus it does nothing to upset team vs team balance so it's not a problem as far as I'm concerned.

[blayas]

I'm seeing the other perspective, too.



I agree, it takes the guesswork out of it. And I'm sad about that because it felt cool when you knew what you were doing, and to imagine getting better in the future. Now it's just mechanical, and a little immersion-breaking since my eyes are glued to an indicator instead of relying on intuition.

And yes, you're less likely to survive an AR/marksman thanks to missed shots or shots not taken. So their overall effectiveness is increased, perhaps throwing off PR's delicate balance.

Any time a skill ceiling is lowered, some of the game's depth is lost. And the deviation mechanic has been around for such a long time and it's such a core part of the game that it completely changes the experience for many people. At the same time, it did have its flaws.

Hopefully the fact that deviation is simplified will create new dynamics and thus make up the depth in other areas of the game. This can be aided by extremely careful tweaking to raise the skill ceiling again.

It does seem strange to make such core design decisions after so many years of painstaking refinement, even if it's to make the game more inviting. Well, it's up to the devs. Nothing wrong with an experiment, and if they don't like the results, they can always undo. Or think up something better than either option.

I agree with this guy , with a deviation display that many simply are not interested more in `` feel`` the gun, are just mechanizing the nuances that make the PR as beautiful game, reducing the depth and immersiveness of the game...

[matty1053]

Should call 1.3.5 the "Infantry Update".

The new maps are AAAAAAAAWWWEEEESSOOMMME for infantry. Especially Gronzy.


I wish we had more maps like infantry friendly coming out soon.

[fatalsushi83]

I agree with this guy , with a deviation display that many simply are not interested more in `` feel`` the gun, are just mechanizing the nuances that make the PR as beautiful game, reducing the depth and immersiveness of the game...

Then why aren't you against the compass floating at the bottom of your screen or the magical map that shows where every single member of your team is? At least the deviation maker is founded in reality because it's basically a substitute for seeing your weapon sway.

[STompa]

Then why aren't you against the compass floating at the bottom of your screen or the magical map that shows where every single member of your team is? At least the deviation maker is founded in reality because it's basically a substitute for seeing your weapon sway.

Because the deviation markers dumbs-down the game to an extreme extent and turns certain kits into easymode. It's just a big gamechanger to a very core aspect of PR and makes deployed kits ridiculously strong and easy to use now. Of course there has to be a limit, but the compass and map just helps make the game playable in general. The deviation markers aren't needed for that, it's excessive.

[UTurista]

There's a difference in reducing the "skill" ceiling and reducing the learning curve, I agree that deviation markers reduced the learning curve (a plus IMO) but it hasn't reduced the skill ceiling at most it got increased.

If players are deadlier now, then players need to learn how to move and communicate in such a way that they or their friends don't get killed.

And IMO opinion that's the core of PR, playing in team to achieve a goal.

[STompa]

but it hasn't reduced the skill ceiling at most it got increased.
If players are deadlier now, then players need to learn how to move and communicate in such a way that they or their friends don't get killed.

Well knowing how to move around the map is still obviously an important factor and will always be a big part of PR. Turning the long range kits into easymode does make it a bit harder for normal rifles that's true. But the problem is that you are making certain kits unessecarily easy to use, while making other styles of playing infantry suffer. So all in all you reduce the skill level to an extreme extent on the deployed kits while making the rest of infantry combat suffer slightly. I'd not say that is worth it, nor a good enough argument to justify dumbing down the mechanics of the game in this way. But that's of course my personal opinion. Having a game full of marksmen staring at indicators killing everything they see hasn't been very fun to play the last few days, unless of course I actually played those kits myself.

[blayas]

Actually ends up reducing skill levels, it is not necessary that someone knows your weapon, even this is based on an engine limitation (which prevents the sway) is even better than the players learn to use their weapons undertanding the nuances of game, and not observing a indicator that banalize this mechanical of the game

[3ti65]

Yes so put it on local and coop not multiplayer...

[Mineral]

Again, it's an inaccurate indicator for scoped weapons... A new player using it will never be as good and wasting time aiming unless he learns to use it better. If you wait for the indicator to go '0' you will have wasted a second or 2. It will still require skill to do it better then the indicator. All it does is lower the bar for players, new or not that do not comprehend the BF2 deviation system yet IMO. This isn't even like a stamina bar,ammo counter or a overheat bar that's 1/1 with the value it's representing. We could take those away as well. We could take everything away. Doesn't make the game harder, just makes it more annoying and is shitty gamedesign. Even more 'hardcore' games like Arma have stance indicators, stamina bars mods, mag indicators and others.

[STompa]

Again, it's an inaccurate indicator for scoped weapons... A new player using it will never be as good and wasting time aiming unless he learns to use it better. If you wait for the indicator to go '0' you will have wasted a second or 2. It will still require skill to do it better then the indicator. All it does is lower the bar for players, new or not that do not comprehend the BF2 deviation system yet IMO. This isn't like a stamina bar,ammo counter or a overheat bar that's 1/1 with the value it's representing. We could take those away as well. We could take everything away. Doesn't make the game harder, just makes it more annoying and is shitty gamedesign. Even hardcore games like Arma have stance indicators, stamina bars mods, mag indicators and others.

It's still accurate enough to completely change the dynamics and use of those kits in my experience. If you want I can make a little compilation of footage and PM you that I've recorded. I don't know how much that'll actually prove though. But you have to see the difference the sprintbar or mag indicators do in relation to the deviation one. The deviation indicator specifically messes with the balance and use of certain kits. On normal rifles I agree with you though, it's not a big deal. But it's not comparable to a sprintbar since it doesn't impact the game in such a dramatic way to specific kits.

[blayas]

If this had the duty to teach new players how it works deviation , still prefer it to be another page in the manual than an indicator that trivializes one of the game's mechanics in an attempt to teach players.

[Mineral]

Really? Imagine if we never introduced ammo counters, stamina bar or overheat bars. And then suddenly we would (which we did). Before the introduction of them it would be the same as deviation right now. You learn it by hard, you develop 'that feeling' (lol). You learn when your sprint is about to run out, if you fuck up you are slowed down. If you don't remember how long the overheat is you are fucked and you can wait a while until you can shoot again. That would also dramatically impact game-play. But those were introduced none the less and were received alright. Overheat also caused a small amount of negative feedback but everyone accepted it and is (I think) mostly positive about it now. Again, it's just shitty gamedesign to not have an indicator IMO. I can agree that it impacts gameplay , I don't think I've denied that. I don't think as massive as you make it sound but it does a little. But that's not a negative argument IMO. Just a consequence.