CLOS SAM Systems

[Mineral]

10/10 thread. I think we need to change our status to 'these changed have ruined the mod' a bit early this release.

Just enjoy the highlight guys make your assumptions once it has been finalized and you got a chance to try it.

[Rhino]

It's official people, the "Project Reality Forum Alert Level" has been upgraded to "OMG!" https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f10-pr ... level.html

Current Project Reality Forum Alert Level
WE ARE CURRENTLY AT OMG

[quote=""'[F|H"]Zackyx;2116156']I think the proximity fuse should be removed/not added since the realism argument is being used by other devs, because sometimes when something is added to the game and people complain about the impact that it might have the gameplay you reply by saying that its "Realistic", but at the same time you justify unrealistic features (proximity fuze) with the gameplay argument.
It doesn't make sense...

Also its quite "easy" for someone skilled to direct hit helicopters with a HAT. So i really dont understand the need for the proximity features (maybe for high-speed target such as fast moving jets).[/quote]

Firstly, all but one of the CLOS SAM Systems we have shown have Proximity Fuses in r/l, with only the Stormer not having a proximity fuse on it, but in r/l it fires off three darts from a single missile, to increase the chances of it directly hitting the target three fold, as best explained and showed in this video from 5:30 onwards, even thou its FutureWeapons yes, best example
https://youtu.be/uKb4fW3Uqxg?t=330

And the best way we can really simulate that, is with a proximity fuse ingame. And as I said in the OP, we can't simulate the Fire Control Systems the Stormer has (which is very similar to what that Thor has above), and combined with server lag, to be able to get a direct hit on a jet. But for engaging a chopper with the Starstreak, you will need a direct hit. It is also worth mentioning that the Blowpipe won't be getting any zoom (did in the video but that's been removed since), to make it easier to engage jets with, and harder to "snipe" choppers with at range.

But as I said, all the others CLOS weapons ingame, the Tigercat, the Blowpipe and the 9M311, all have a proximity fuse, with the Tigercat even packing a Continuous-rod warhead to make the most of its Proximity Fuse, by literally cutting though w/e it explodes next to.

Zackyx;2116156']I also think all AA missile with realistic speed should have their speed reduced by 40/50% because engagement distance in PR are extremely short compare to real life (under 600m for most maps).

All AA missiles in PR have had realistic speeds for some time now. We have also been doing a lot of testing with CLOS and the speeds as they are, are both good and challenging for gameplay.

Zackyx;2116156']The second reason is that Physics dont apply to missile in PR they dont accelerate and they dont decelerate so having a missile leaving the "launching platform" at maximum speed and keeping that speed no matter how hard it maneuvers and how long it flies making the missiles look completely unrealistic.

I'm sorry, but while gravity etc doesn't have any affect on missiles while they are locked on (or accelerating), they do very much accelerate in PR and do not launch at max speed...

Zackyx;2116156']Most modern jets/helicopters in PR are equipped with DIRCM, MAWS(optical & radio), ECM in real life capable of detecting missile launch (optic),radio command guidance and suppressing/jamming them.

Firstly this is mainly for PR:Falklands, where they didn't have that kinda tech. Secondly the more modern Stormer with Starstreak, can't be detected like that, other than possibly the optical one, which very few aircraft are fitted with and when they are, they don't always work, especially with the Starstreak which doesn't give off much of a launch signature.

But the Tunguska ye that would probably be detected, mainly from its radar if the radar was switched on.

Zackyx;2116156']Its already highly unrealistic for a HAT to be able to shoot down a fast moving helicopters with no warning what so ever for the pilot, by adding an "Anti-Air HAT" it might destroy the balance and game-play of air assets.

Actually many Anti-Tank weapons are designed to be able to engage choppers on top of ground vehicles and have been used this way during conflicts.



[quote="Koskettelija""]lol stormer is good against ground vehicles already in PR, bet most of the complainers never even been in one. It already does shit ton of damage and launches missile pretty much where u aim it at. But no one complained about it before. Funny.[/quote]

Indeed, in the current PR release you just need to aim directly at the target and the missile will follow that path, and it has the same anti-armour settings it has now, since we did that change for v1.3.5, just without the CLOS guidance.

[[F|H]Zackyx]

Rhino;2116160']It's official people, the "Project Reality Forum Alert Level" has been upgraded to "OMG!" https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f10-pr ... level.html



Actually many Anti-Tank weapons are designed to be able to engage choppers on top of ground vehicles and have been used this way during conflicts.

They are meant to engage hovering and low and slow moving helicopters not a chopper moving at full speed while standing. The eryx cant be fired accurately at a fixed target further than 150 meters while standing.

So shooting a flying chopper 300/600 meters away in the standing position while moving at full speed is impossible.

http://www.castpics.net/pdfs/m/CA/b-gl-385-010%20-%20Eryx%20-%20Short%20Range%20Anti-armour%20Weapon.pdf Page 56

Standing Position
. All options must be considered prior to adopting this position (see Figure 2-13) as it requires advanced training and skill to successfully engage a target while standing. Firing from the standing position should not be attempted at ranges over 150 metres.

And for the rest i feel like i'm talking to brick wall i guess you are just gonna do what you fell like.

10/10 thread. I think we need to change our status to 'these changed have ruined the mod' a bit early this release.

Just enjoy the highlight guys make your assumptions once it has been finalized and you got a chance to try it.

Go to the feedback thread and might understand the frustration, we are still waiting for the Hellfire fixes promised by rhino in 2014...

PS: i hope moderator will enforce the troll and m?me posting rules equally no matter the tags...

[votps]

with all these AA systems, you have to decrease aircraft spawn time especially helicopters, for heli's it is already almost impossible to be on the map while 1 aa is active somewhere..

[Rhino]

Zackyx;2116163']They are meant to engage hovering and low and slow moving helicopters not a chopper moving at full speed while standing. The eryx cant be fired accurately at a fixed target further than 150 meters while standing.

So shooting a flying chopper 300/600 meters away in the standing position while moving at full speed is impossible.

http://www.castpics.net/pdfs/m/CA/b-gl-385-010%20-%20Eryx%20-%20Short%20Range%20Anti-armour%20Weapon.pdf Page 56

Well the Eryx is really not the best example and it's a pretty ineffective HAT in r/l... For starters its command wire is only 600m long, which means it can only engage targets accurately within 600m, after that the command wire snaps and the missile can not receive any more commands and will keep on heading along its last course until it impacts on something. It is worth mentioning that this is the same as it is ingame, that past 600m, you can not guide it.

And yes, in r/l its meant to be mainly used from a tripod, but without, only making it a deployable (which the MILAN serves better), that isn't possible ingame. We also can't simulate its inaccuracy in BF2 with different stances. All we have control over is the initial deviation of the round when fired, which we already have a much higher deviation for standing than crouched, but with CLOS guidance, the missile will quickly go back on to where ever the target is aimed, and the only way we could truly simulate it is though weapon sway, something we can not do on the BF2 engine.... Other than lowering missile speed, which tbh, wouldn't really help and in many cases, would in fact make it easier to hit choppers with having more time to aim at them with (in a lot of cases its easier to get the Tigercat on target than the faster Blowpipe due to its slower speed), I have yet to hear you actually suggest something that we can do in the BF2 engine to make HAT kits worse vs choppers, if you really have an issue with it?

Anyways things are getting really off topic here so please can we get back on topic?

Zackyx;2116163']And for the rest i feel like i'm talking to brick wall i guess you are just gonna do what you fell like.

We do listen to community feedback but I'm sorry, you have simply yet to play with these changes. We and all our testers have been testing this out for some time now and have been making small tweaks here and there to improve them and everyone on the team has really enjoyed using them, even for some of our testers who really struggle to get any kills with CLOS SAMs. In that video we took, we took lots of takes to get some decent shots of where the missile hit their targets etc. We where doing promo shooting for about 1hr on the Tigercat alone to get those shots for the video.

Once you and the rest of the community have had a proper chance to play with these changes and get use to them (it will take some time for players to learn how to use to CLOS SAMs properly and also to also get use to each SAMs missile speed which affects how you aim them quite a bit).

This is a video of the original proof of concept testing we did for CLOS SAMs almost two years ago now and while yes, the first shots on slow targets like choppers and turboprops where pretty easy, you see I miss most of the jets and since then we have tweaked a lot of the settings to make it easier to hit jets, and harder to hit choppers, like widening the scope, removing the scopes zoom (which HAT has too BTW, making it easier for them to snipe choppers at range) and changing the proximity and detonation settings totally, etc. I'm not saying its not still pretty easy to hit choppers for a skilled player if he is in the right place at the right time, but its not going to be super easy for anyone to kill them either.

Zackyx;2116163']Go to the feedback thread and might understand the frustration, we are still waiting for the Hellfire fixes promised by rhino in 2014...

Well that is actually a collision and material fix, which requires total rework of all our deployables collision meshes and also making new materials and testing them etc. I have also been pretty busy with fixing and making other stuff but its open to anyone from the community to learn how to do this stuff for themselves and fix it you know. All us devs at one point or another, came from within the community too, myself included. So you can either help us fix these issues you want fixed, or you can wait for us to fix up the million other tasks we are trying to fix before we can get to these lower priority issues.

BTW, its worth mentioning that development of the Tigercat SAM started three and 1/2 years ago now, just to get an idea of how long things take for people working in their spare time for free on something like this: https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f388-p ... f-wip.html

[Jacksonez__]

Why not lower CAS spawn back to 15 min?

[PricelineNegotiator]

Why not lower CAS spawn back to 15 min?

Why not remove CAS completely if it's going to get nerfed each patch? Makes much more sense.

[Jacksonez__]

Why not remove CAS completely if it's going to get nerfed each patch? Makes much more sense.

I've still seen some CAS pilots with dank K/D stats despite the fact CAS is getting nerfed each patch

[Rhino]

Why not lower CAS spawn back to 15 min?

Why not remove CAS completely if it's going to get nerfed each patch? Makes much more sense.

Firstly it is probably important that I should point out that I am a serious CAS whore, yet I'm the main person in the team pioneering this development. Not because I want to give CAS a harder, or even possibly an easier time (depending on the player firing the SAM, it will average out to around about the same as normal AA), but it will make the entire Anti-Aircraft role far more fun to play, meaning more players will (hopefully) want to play the AA roles, especially for those who don't like to fly. This will also add to the whole experience of jets, making it, IMO, a lot more fun to play and rewarding when you do manage to counter them. There are ways to really throw off a CLOS gunners aim pretty easily, you just need to be on the lookout for them and throw in a few passive countermeasures even when you don't see any, and simply just don't fly in easy straight lines or smooth turns and at low level above an area where there may be SAMs


I also feel I need to point out again that this gameplay dynamic is mainly for PR:Falklands. There are only currently two SAM systems outside of PR:Falklands that have CLOS, and they are not used on that many maps. To be exact, the only (AAS Game Mode only, so not including Vehicle Warfare layers etc) Maps the Stormer can be found on are 3 (Burning Sands, Hades Peak & Shijia Valley), and the Tunguska only on 1 map (Black Gold). So only 4 out of 48 maps (currently) in PR, which is only 8% of PR's Maps...


It is also worth noting that in previous releases of PR:Falklands, there where a lot of jets on the main "The Falklands" map, and most jet spawn times where only 5mins. I am looking at increasing this spawn time a little for v1.4 but dying in CAS in PR:F, isn't anything like as bad as in normal PR, with the main problem it having is putting a dent in your teams ticket count, but you are not going to have to wait very long until your next jet spawns, as well as I'm going to be looking at giving the players a few things to do while they are waiting for their jet, or chopper to respawn too

[STompa]

Rhino;2116226']
(Burning Sands, Hades Peak & Shijia Valley)[/I], and the Tunguska only on 1 map (Black Gold). So only 4 out of 48 maps (currently) in PR, which is only 8% of PR's Maps...

But not all maps have CAS in them. So not really a fair way of counting percentage.

Either way you don't need to try it to figure out how it will affect the game. Same was said with the deviation indicator. "Don't cry until you try it" and ofc nothing came as a surprise.

[Navo]

omg with this and the deviation indicator game is ruined

give money back

[STompa]

omg with this and the deviation indicator game is ruined

give money back

Are you a comedian?

[Navo]

Are you a comedian?

I'm everything you want me to be

[Rhino]

But not all maps have CAS in them. So not really a fair way of counting percentage.

Ok fair enough. Just counted, a total of 25 of the 48 maps have at least one "ahe" (attack heli) and/or "jet" in their AAS GPO.con, which is 52% of PR maps have "CAS" in them, and of them that have CLOS in them, which is 4 of those 25 maps, which is 16%, which is still, only 1/6th of the CAS maps have a CLOS SAM in them...

Either way you don't need to try it to figure out how it will affect the game. Same was said with the deviation indicator. "Don't cry until you try it" and ofc nothing came as a surprise.

Firstly, every single change we make is complained about. God I can still remember the uproar we got when we said we where going to remove the vBF2 Squad Leader Spawn (ie, where you can spawn directly on your squad leader at all times, providing he was alive), and yet, is anyone asking for that back now?

Secondly the deviation indicator was a total visual change you could see for the most part how it was going to behave so yes, it was easier for most but still think most of the community are fine with it. But this is not a visual change, it is very much something you have to try and get a feel with it, especially in terms of jets since yes, you can relate a little to HATs vs Choppers when used against choppers, but against jets, there is really nothing to compare it with in the slightest.

[Nate.]

Didn't see anyone give a fuck about the deviation indicator in months + gameplay is the same as before.
Also why is it a problem if AA becomes more skill-based (as in: you aim properly to kill) instead of random (wait for lock and get schroedinger's AA missile)?

[STompa]

Didn't see anyone give a fuck about the deviation indicator in months + gameplay is the same as before.

No it's not the same as before playing as AR.

But this thread isn't about that. So please stop nit-picking on me comparing it with that.

[Frontliner]

Either way you don't need to try it to figure out how it will affect the game. Same was said with the deviation indicator. "Don't cry until you try it" and ofc nothing came as a surprise.

The only maps these are going to be featured are maps that include both Brits and CAS. It's going to make life harder for pilots(especially choppers) on those maps but that's about it. It literally does not affect any other map, and no map besides Burning Sands and maybe Shijia(if I'm generous) are maps of the aforementioned kind that I would expect to see more than once a week. The remainder of the game stays as-is. Hardly game-breaking.

[potatochan]

Haven't been around for a few months but I see stompa still complaining like an old man.

[Chefmoto1]

I actually really like this system, I'm all for more skill based weapons. I just hope that it isn't so abundant that it's hard to make Trans runs.

For anyone complaining you should realize that if their is a CLOS SAM, that also means that is one less infrared AA to worry about. Jets not flying in straight lines and not flying at low alt should hardly ever have to worry about this. Choppers may have to be more wary though.

[STompa]

[quote=""'[R-CON"]potatochan;2116351']Haven't been around for a few months but I see stompa still complaining like an old man.[/quote]

[quote="Frontliner""]The only maps these are going to be featured are maps that include both Brits and CAS. It's going to make life harder for pilots(especially choppers) on those maps but that's about it. It literally does not affect any other map, and no map besides Burning Sands and maybe Shijia(if I'm generous) are maps of the aforementioned kind that I would expect to see more than once a week. The remainder of the game stays as-is. Hardly game-breaking.[/quote]

Lol seriously now. I don't want to comment more here but you keep baiting it. Did I say anything against the new AA's or complained about it? No.

I just said I don't think the "you have to try it before whining" argument is a good one. I only then responded to you guys managing to read a bunch of things which I never said.

"I haven't been around here for months but I can see that potato is still a mindless asslicker as usual". See, it's not very pleasant to read things like that.

Thanks and please stop now.