Attack helis physics, flares and missiles

[Mats391]

so the HUD speed on Trans and Attack heli are wrong ?

They are roughly 2.7x of what it actually is. #JustBF2Things

[viirusiiseli]

Yeah lets not forget the lynx had a max speed of around 1200

[Rhino]

Yeah lets not forget the lynx had a max speed of around 1200

Ye, it could break the sound barrier

[X-Alt]

[quote=""'[R-DEV"]Rhino;2118559']When we where implementing the Zhi-9WA with HJ-8s, which are Wire Guided SACLOS missiles, we did look at it again but decided that it was far too hard to hit the target with it and when with the "point and click, TV / Laser Guided" method all the other choppers have.

There are quite a few choppers ingame which should have that system so we could look into it, but it would also mean the attack helis where no longer mirror balanced if the Havok and Zhi-10W got it.



Totally ignore the BF2 HUD speed, its totally off, hence why Mats has made a new python script to read the true speed for testing.[/quote]
Zhi-10W has the HJ-10, which is TV guided. The Havok, being a helicopter with the most amount of ATGMs on-board, would be assymetrically balanced with the Apache\Other western helis in that sense.

AH-64:
More Cannon ammo
LG\LT

Havok:
Wire Guided (could be good for curving things)
Fast Firing Cannon
16x Missiles

[quote="Rabbit""]And it is why every other person hates cas and it can end up with getting a ridiculous kdr. In my opinion for what PR is and the map sizes available there is no good way to make cas realistic and balanced.



Actually if I were still a dev I would continue to lobby to remove cas choppers.[/quote]
Is it because people suffer from one of the following?

1. Inability to aim a tank cannon
2. Inability to aim a guided ATGM
3. Inability to operate AA and AAVs
4. Inability to operate an APC
5. Inability to use a guided HAT

[Rhino]

Zhi-10W has the HJ-10, which is TV guided.

Ye, but it has HJ-8 pods modelled onto it, which it can also fire but this is one of the reasons we say HJ-10 on the HUD

[Rabbit]

[quote=""'dalianplant[x64"];2118499']Thank god you are not an R-DEV anymore.With that mentality and low amount of game knowledge regarding attack helicopters/attack helicopter threats you would just ruin the mod even more.[/quote]

[quote="X-Alt""]
Is it because people suffer from one of the following?

1. Inability to aim a tank cannon
2. Inability to aim a guided ATGM
3. Inability to operate AA and AAVs
4. Inability to operate an APC
5. Inability to use a guided HAT[/quote]

Its because cas choppers are used in a highly unrealistic way. In PR they are used as what can best be compared to the UAV that can also fly through city streets. Now while I am more than willing to accept the unrealistic physics/ rotor blade collisions because of bf2/gameplay the fact that cas choppers are used as high altitude loitering death machines is unrealistic and not that fun for either cas or receiving end.

CAS choppers CAN be so OP in the right hands that their spawn times are not shit. If you want to play CAS and lose it because some idiot crashes and leaves the server you are screwed. usually you have to wait (large layer excluded) 1/3 of the round to even get it which sucks for people who like cas, and in that way I feel for them.

HOWEVER you should not be able to go 100:0, looking at you viirus; and while you are undoutably one of if not the best CAS chopper pilot in PR, you should not be going 100:0 as that is what causes the hate and the spawn time nerf.

In real life choppers fly low and engage low, for a number of reasons. Radar detection and easy for AAA to find its target, flying high means you are silhouetted against the sky for longer, one reason why crashhawks in Iraq were getting shot down and they lowered their altitude limit.
Army changes helicopter flight routes to avoid attacks - www.smh.com.au (not the best source but fuck you its about 13 years old)

While they are certainly not the same helicopter or same class I will point out the US ARMY field manual for operating attack/recon helicopters. In section 3-11 you can refference attack types and firing positions, it recommends staying low but still high enough for you to not kick shit up. Section 3-13 that explains generally fire from far, not from high. (yes it is a limitation of PR that you cannot fire from 5 miles away.) Low visability (fits bf2's stupid low view distance), fly in do your shit and get the hell out.

FM: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... m1-112.pdf

And finally another reason you do not fly high.

You don't want to get in the way of these fuckers when they are working/fighting against you.

So, I don't like them because how they are implemented and used in PR is WAY different from real life and only causes more issues for both people who like to play with it (long spawn time) and those who are in its sights (slaughter you and cannot do that much to stop it).

[STompa]

HOWEVER you should not be able to go 100:0, looking at you viirus; and while you are undoutably one of if not the best CAS chopper pilot in PR, you should not be going 100:0 as that is what causes the hate and the spawn time nerf.

I mean you "can't cure stupid" in PR. No matter how nerfed cas or anything is people will always be able to achieve high kill scores on occasion if the circumstances are right. I've seen 100+ kills in armor more often than cas for that matter. Even saw GoldenEagle get over 100 kills with a sniper kit on muttra, ask him if you don't believe me. Skilled players vs "headless chickens" will produce the same result in PR no matter what. One or two incidents of what is possible to achieve shouldn't decide how to balance the game imo. It's the total average that matters, no? Can be compared to saying "I saw a good pilot get 0 kills a few times -> buff cas".

[Rabbit]

I mean you "can't cure stupid" in PR. No matter how nerfed cas or anything is people will always be able to achieve high kill scores on occasion if the circumstances are right. I've seen 100+ kills in armor more often than cas for that matter. Even saw GoldenEagle get over 100 kills with a sniper kit on muttra, ask him if you don't believe me. Skilled players vs "headless chickens" will produce the same result in PR no matter what. One or two incidents of what is possible to achieve shouldn't decide how to balance the game imo. It's the total average that matters no? Can be compared to saying "I saw a good pilot get 0 kills a few times -> buff cas".

Right, I am not saying it is correct, but when people report things to the forums it is usually extremes and usually you do not get middle of the road people posting. So when you have people like Viirus getting 100:0 with the cas chopper you say "wow it is OP" so the spawn time gets nerfed. What I am saying is change how it plays, try and push players to use it how it is really used, but that is hard considering it is usually used at low level 5 miles away. The "middle ground" would be trying to get players to use it how the field manual says it operates in low visibility. Issue with this is forcing players to do something for sake of realism is hard and quite often unpopular, which is why I think only light cas choppers belong in PR.

[[F|H]Zackyx]

Right, I am not saying it is correct, but when people report things to the forums it is usually extremes and usually you do not get middle of the road people posting. So when you have people like Viirus getting 100:0 with the cas chopper you say "wow it is OP" so the spawn time gets nerfed. What I am saying is change how it plays, try and push players to use it how it is really used, but that is hard considering it is usually used at low level 5 miles away. The "middle ground" would be trying to get players to use it how the field manual says it operates in low visibility. Issue with this is forcing players to do something for sake of realism is hard and quite often unpopular, which is why I think only light cas choppers belong in PR.

Im just going to copy paste one of my comments on mats video :

I really don't understand, you want us to believe that CAS is the problem while the lack of skill of this community is the real problem. Is it my fault if people are retarded ? Yesterday Viirus and Me got 60+ kills in 10/15 minuts on Mutrah by hovering above WEST CITY CENTER !!! No AA , No LAT , No HAT, No AR, NO APC fired at us...


Nerfing cas wont change that ! Last time golden eagle got 100 kills with sniper by camping on fob on muttrah people are retarded ! They keep spawning and running like sheep, playing coop is more challenging !
Is it our fault if can get 70 kills in 20 minutes from the same FOB (Glitched in a T building) while hovering in front of it with the cobra ? Stuff like that was impossible few month ago...

The average player IQ is falling down at impressive rate if you keep nerfing asset at the same rate in few month we gonna play PR with BB guns so everybody can have fun (as you said on the forum)...


During Clan matches and tournaments CAS is shit when the enemy team know how to defend and build AAs.

Only 2 gunners (Viirus and myself) can get the 100 kills in gunships as far as i'm a aware and its only when the stars align in our favor (retarded team on both side).

But getting 100 kills with APCs/Tanks is much more common but yet we dont see people crying left and right about it. Getting high K/D with no communication, spotter and UAV/Commander is quite easy with armor almost impossible with CAS.

So nerfing Gunships because of 2 players is ridiculous. Also what is funny is that people say its too easy but do you know how "hard" we work to get those kills ?

People who played with us on teamspeak know that we are not randomly flying around UAV style. It is the complete opposite we rely heavily on UAV/Commander and ground spotters without them we perform very poorly... Next time you see us with a high K/D press CAPS lock and check for your self.

But Now Devs really need to define what is balance ? Because right now balance seems to be focused on getting a "fun experience" for the new player base with the same IQ as headless chicken that has started playing PR since it became a free-to-play game(no valid CD key). Or we balance the game when its played a its "best" (Clans matches or tournaments :razz .

The feeling that many of us have is that the "veterans" wants a more challenging game play while the new players want a soft version of PR with more forgiving game play and friendly UI (deviation brackets, No grey scoreboard, slower choppers...).

Last funny note its that people want SACLOS missiles for CAS and nerfed missile at the same time. But the consequence of that will be that the choppers will hover "UAV style" (Oxymoron UAV don't hover IG) since its the only way to fire accurately a SACLOS missile in PR because there is no stabilization and no splash against armor on ATGMS.

[UTurista]

10, 100, 1000 kills that's not the issue, at least in my opinion, the issue is that the AA is not to CAS what TOWs are to tanks.

Very rarely I see tanks pushing to a Tow emplacement and wreck everything, usually they just avoid them and/or wait cordinate attacks with mortars/infantry but CAS, on the other hand, is quite famous to spam flares and destroy AA emplacements even when not lazed (ie: they just find an accurate marker and use the Dive approach that gives the 3D marker).
This is what upsets most players is that even a good net of AAs may fail to kill the enemy air assets.

And regarding the turn rate, what's the issue? Why can't just the pilot yaw to the right bearing instead of buffing the turn rate?

[Rabbit]

Zackyx;2118644']
Only 2 gunners (Viirus and myself) can get the 100 kills in gunships as far as i'm a aware and its only when the stars align in our favor (retarded team on both side).

Like I said before, I defended that, that they see this (the extreme) and this is what devs react to, because middle of the road people don't complain about issues they do not see an issue with.

Lets be clear, and I will put it in bold this time. All I am saying is changing CAS choppers to how they would operation in a low view distance battle field that is PR, fast in and out strikes.
This would mean high risk, thus more losses and hopefully later either a buff in health and or deduction in spawn time. But I am no dev.

Zackyx;2118644']
But getting 100 kills with APCs/Tanks is much more common but yet we dont see people crying left and right about it. Getting high K/D with no communication, spotter and UAV/Commander is quite easy with armor almost impossible with CAS.

Not saying it is impossible, but I cannot think of the last time I saw something (with an appropriate counter) break 50 kills except for CAS choppers.

Zackyx;2118644']
So nerfing Gunships because of 2 players is ridiculous. Also what is funny is that people say its too easy but do you know how "hard" we work to get those kills ?

Again, I agree with you, its because devs only see extremes because so few middle of the road people speak up.

Zackyx;2118644']
People who played with us on teamspeak know that we are not randomly flying around UAV style. It is the complete opposite we rely heavily on UAV/Commander and ground spotters without them we perform very poorly... Next time you see us with a high K/D press CAPS lock and check for your self.

Well, anyvideos I say appear orbital (rotation not a joke about height) which is usually not how they operate.

Zackyx;2118644']
But Now Devs really need to define what is balance ? Because right now balance seems to be focused on getting a "fun experience" for the new player base with the same IQ as headless chicken that has started playing PR since it became a free-to-play game(no valid CD key). Or we balance the game when its played a its "best" (Clans matches or tournaments :razz .

Again, I want cas to be redone in a way that is beneficial to both sides, granted you lose a heli less than most players but can you say you honestly wouldn't be willing to middle ground to get you MORE playtime in a chopper?

Zackyx;2118644']
The feeling that many of us have is that the "veterans" wants a more challenging game play while the new players want a soft version of PR with more forgiving game play and friendly UI (deviation brackets, No grey scoreboard, slower choppers...).

As a veteran you should be able to see how many new names there are, the last thing I want is for new players to be turned away from a game. Yes it sucks because it means a loss for veteran players, but at this point I am used to things changing in PR. I mean shit I played from the first release, so I remember when insurgents had a tank, then it got all up in its *** with realism, but I changed with it.

Zackyx;2118644']
Last funny note its that people want SACLOS missiles for CAS and nerfed missile at the same time. But the consequence of that will be that the choppers will hover "UAV style" (Oxymoron UAV don't hover IG) since its the only way to fire accurately a SACLOS missile in PR because there is no stabilization and no splash against armor on ATGMS.

I have to be honest and know jack shit about this, and wanted to say that so it didn't come off as just avoiding the point.

[Acecombatzer0]

I'm neutral on the issue overall, as I never really fly CAS, but I think the re-arm rate on helicopter missiles need to be be increased.

Whenever I see one of viirus's or FFGs videos they just spam Hellfires on FOBs or ground assets and RTB knowing they can get back in the fight very quickly. And many times they would use a Hellfire on just one infantry, they hardly use cannons.

Where a tank crewmen must make a conscious decision to RTB and rearm, as driving to and from the battle takes them out of the fight for 5-10 minutes on a 4km map.

Its the same with the Kiowas on Karbala/Kokan and the Hueys on Al Basrah/Muttrah/Barracuda. They spam hydras and RTB, they would rather area attack and bug out rather than coordinating with the ground and using the munitions wisely.

Jets are the same, as they take awhile to land and taxi to the rearm area.

But keep the CAS previous buffs as they are.

Remove super CAS choppers from maps with jets as it is unrealistic and silly. (IRL an Aim-9 can easily shoot down a high flying Havoc across a 4km map)

As a result, CAS is rarely utilized, but used during pivotal moments in the battle. So CAS choppers would get around 20-30 kills a battle but usually 0 deaths. CAS players are happy because they get more flawless games, INF players are happy because CAS don't get 50+ kills a game.


TL;DR: Heavily increase re-arm time on Hellfires and Hydras, so they are less spammy, but keep every Heli CAS buff as they were

[PatrickLA_CA]

TL;DR: Heavily increase re-arm time on Hellfires and Hydras, so they are less spammy, but keep every Heli CAS buff as they were

That's not a bad idea, maybe instead of "Heavily" increasing the reload times the amount of missiles carried by the choppers can be decreased to 4 and just slightly increase the reload times. IRL Apaches can barely take off with a full load anyways.

[Tit4Tat]

Good idea on increasing reload time or decrease ammo size. All I say is, 2 people as Mr zacky pointed out shouldn't be able to rebalance a round consisting of 98 other players, this ain't no red carpet shit. I know things have changed in Pr now (unfortunately) the ethos of teamwork is being diminished more and more, and imo it has to do with these so called "veterans". Just cause you are a great CAS whore and glue your face into a monitor to get those bad *** kds, from what I hear/know, the real old skool players don't really praise that kind of gameplay that most old skool cas whores thrive on. Especially when there is a rumour something is going to happen to their beloved asset for which ever reason and these type of thread start popping up.

If CAS completely gets removed, sorry, but I don't think majority of people will miss it. Sorry boys.

[LiamBai]

Good idea on increasing reload time or decrease ammo size. All I say is, 2 people as Mr zacky pointed out shouldn't be able to rebalance a round consisting of 98 other players, this ain't no red carpet shit. I know things have changed in Pr now (unfortunately) the ethos of teamwork is being diminished more and more, and imo it has to do with these so called "veterans". Just cause you are a great CAS whore and glue your face into a monitor to get those bad *** kds, from what I hear/know, the real old skool players don't really praise that kind of gameplay that most old skool cas whores thrive on. Especially when there is a rumour something is going to happen to their beloved asset for which ever reason and these type of thread start popping up.

If CAS completely gets removed, sorry, but I don't think majority of people will miss it. Sorry boys.

While I, as a huge CAS whore, am okay with a lot of the 'nerf's, this is one point I have to disagree with

2 sufficiently good plays will always be able to make a difference. Imagine you play on some server populated with 98 no mic players who spend half the time trying to request sniper kits, and your awesome recon friend pops on with you. You go commander, get a logi, continually build sensible FOBs in hidden locations near objectives in play and your friend takes a breacher and sneaks around blowing up all the enemy FOBs. Really quickly your team will start to steamroll even though they're braindead.

I don't think the focus should be on making it harder to get kills, but I do think the game right now(CAS wise) needs some kind of balance.

[Mats391]

Increasing the reload time is an interesting idea. Than you could deal lots of damage but if you need to rearm or repair you are out for some time. Just like it is the case with tanks and apcs.
However doing that would be a bit tricky. Cant have one type of ammo rearm slower than another, so if we decrease rearm speed on helipads transport choppers will also have to wait longer. One way to do it could be to classify attack helicopters as jets and have separate rearm speed for jets on all helipads.

[viirusiiseli]

[Tit4Tat]

I hear you Liam, maybe I should of elaborated on my point more. The truth is I have never seen 98 headless players running round screaming pew pew pew, but I have seen more than I'd like CAS, completely whipping the shit out of sqds who previously just had a proper 1v1, 2v2 or worse 1v3 tactical fire fighter with the opposite number and both sides even complimented each other over chat by having some nutters diving and 2-3 clicks and .."fuk this CAS shit, I'm out".

Ok, this shit can happen, but it's this type of moaning and boasting that gets people to have negative views on CAS. You was part of that click once Liam, but you saw the light

Btw, top o the morning to ya

[viirusiiseli]

Increasing the reload time is an interesting idea. Than you could deal lots of damage but if you need to rearm or repair you are out for some time. Just like it is the case with tanks and apcs.
However doing that would be a bit tricky. Cant have one type of ammo rearm slower than another, so if we decrease rearm speed on helipads transport choppers will also have to wait longer. One way to do it could be to classify attack helicopters as jets and have separate rearm speed for jets on all helipads.

Eh, in 4km it does take a lot of time to return to main and reload. It takes several minutes.

Even in 0.98 it took a while to get back to main, then its 1-2 minutes on the pad if you're damaged. Gain alt for 1-5 minutes. Start heading back into the map. In total that's roughly between 4-8 minutes I'd say on average. You can build an AA FOB or drive an AAV out of main in less time.

With 1.3 heli speeds it can take twice those times due to moving/ascending speeds being lower. Hence why helis like to hover as much as possible when they have the chance, returning to main is a pain in the ***. As long as there are no active threats this is what causes the hovering, using cannon even when you dont have missiles because RTBing takes forever and makes you lose situational awareness.

A lot can change in those 5 minutes.

Who knows, with faster choppers ground guys could have an easier time just because the helis would like to RTB more instead of taking the gamble on hovering in most cases. That's how it was in 0.98, but too hard to tell how it will be now as it's a lot different.

[Acecombatzer0]

Good point viirus, it does take awhile to ascend a chopper, hopefully the helo speeds will be fixed in the near future.

So shooting down CAS is a difficult but you'll use the cannon more often and use Hellfires against important assets.

IRL A CAS chopper would fly way off the map to rearm, two opposing factions would never have helicopter bases so close to each other. Mechanized/Infantry main bases would be another story. Either that argument or IRL it would take a lot longer for a ground crew to resupply rockets and missiles onto a chopper.

My main point is it is unrealistic to use a Hellfire missile or a full salvo of hydras on one infantry as I have seen countless times in PR. Munitions should be used more wisely as infantry have that risk all the time. (Should I use the HAT or save it for later?)

If possible Mats391, can you move this to a feedback or a suggestion thead so we don't derail the original discussion?