AA vehicles and emplacements not really helpful

[Chuva_RD]

Yesterday I was playing Bijar Canyons, my squad was operating Avengers against MIGs throwing LGB on us. One of crews utilized 32 rockets for 1 jet, during period MIG was alive he bombed two Avengers. Every run jet popped around roughly 20 flares.

Today on Bijar Canyons my squad was operating same Avengers against Mi-28, again this flying target survived 32+ rockets, just easily dodged it by popping flares. After I locked chopper and shot 3 missiles he popped flares and survived, after 5 seconds I repeated it and got hellfire in cabine.

Some time ago on Muttrah Cobra made 10 runs in a row on city against two handled Strela's and one Djigit. I rebuilded Djigit twice because of hellfires.

I tried to shoot above flaring chopper, tried to shoot under it, directly on it, I was shooting jets flying right on me, jets in sky, tried to lock only jet leaving flares behind detecting zone, but I still absolutely don't know how to shoot down flying targets.

Let me ask how AA should work in this game? How AA operators should shoot down flying targets if they can't choose singature and even can't lock they if there are flares?

[Danesh_italiano]

I think otherwise. Very easy to die by AA. Mainly flying in helicopters. MANY times when you lock and shot in the flares, the missile reflects and go to the jet/helicopter. Many times you can drop 30 flares and even then the missile explodes you.

[Acecombatzer0]

It's pretty random dude, whenever you're on AA you think it sucks, and when you're in a jet/helo, you think AA is OP

It's the circle of life

[viirusiiseli]

It's pretty random dude, whenever you're on AA you think it sucks, and when you're in a jet/helo, you think AA is OP

It's the circle of life

This so much.

Today on Bijar Canyons my squad was operating same Avengers against Mi-28, again this flying target survived 32+ rockets, just easily dodged it by popping flares. After I locked chopper and shot 3 missiles he popped flares and survived, after 5 seconds I repeated it and got hellfire in cabine.

---

Let me ask how AA should work in this game? How AA operators should shoot down flying targets if they can't choose singature and even can't lock they if there are flares?

That same bijar round I manned a Djigit and killed both apaches. First one, with the first 2 missiles I shot at it while it was flaring. Second one I missed 4 missiles on, before killing it with the 3rd salvo of 2 missiles when it came back, through flares.

Then again, I took a 9k35 Gopher and fired 4 AA on 2 apaches without even getting 1 missile to track. It's bad luck here, good luck there.

And I don't know if it was your guys or not, but we got one-shotted by MANPAD stinger from about 1km distance away. You also didn't mention your AAV killing us on bijar city, with first 2 AAs.

In my opinion, when you shoot multiple AA at once, they tend to not work as well. When I fly a jet or heli, 1 missile turns out to be the deadliest. Static AAs seem to be the best out of all 3 aswell.

Having been on the opposite end, I can say this report is biased since you don't mention nothing but your negative experiences.

[Fastjack]

Check this thread: https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f10-pr ... ble-2.html
Here you will find out, how Anti Air missiles working.

[Chuva_RD]

It's pretty random dude, whenever you're on AA you think it sucks, and when you're in a jet/helo, you think AA is OP

It's the circle of life

Let's look on facts and numbers instead of blind faith in luck.

Every AA missile have chance to not relock on flares when they are popped out (ObjectTemplate.seek.directionBonus 0.xx). Roughly all rockets can be grouped by this chance for ground-based and air-based.

Every CAS pilot use flares, I do not speak about the one who do not use it.

For the most of air-based rockets it is 0.85, or 15% chance what rocket will miss if one flare was popped out and 2% chance of two rockets miss the target. That's pretty many, and you almost can't excape they. This applies for both long-ranged and close-ranged rockets.

For the most of ground based rockets it varies from 0.1 to 0.2, so if I launch 1 rocket on jet or heli it hit the target with 10%-20% chance, not matter was there flares after lock or not.

Average number of rockets I suppose to set as 3 and it will be Stinger from Avenger with 0.1 chance of keeping target and AIM120 with 0.85. Math says you have 73% of miss with all three rockets from Stinger but 0.3% chance to miss with all three AIM120.

Diagrams for people who can't come to believe in numbers and theory of chances:

Reasonable question "How it's possible?" after this mark in 1.0 version changelog:

Gameplay

Updated Flares, distracting AAs better now.

AS result ground AA not comparable with jet missiles and air defence up to jet pilots leaving ground crews useless.


Your turn, CAS gentlemens. I will look into any of your arguments supported by statistics/math/game mechanics, not by faith in luck or fate. Prove me this side of game not broken now.

[KSVM_UA_]

Lurked on some game files.

1.3 ninja nerfed this parameter of all AA's.

1.2.1 Starstreak:
ObjectTemplate.seek.directionBonus 0.5

1.3.9 Starstreak:
ObjectTemplate.seek.directionBonus 0.1

1.2.1 Strela-10M:
ObjectTemplate.seek.directionBonus 0.25

1.3.9 Strela-10M:
ObjectTemplate.seek.directionBonus 0.1

1.2.1 Tunguska-M:
ObjectTemplate.seek.directionBonus 0.5

1.3.9 Tunguska-M:
ObjectTemplate.seek.directionBonus 0.1

And my favourite:
1.2.1 Stinger:
ObjectTemplate.seek.directionBonus 0.8

1.3.9 Stinger:
ObjectTemplate.seek.directionBonus 0.15

And so on... Seems weird. Chuva_RD seems to be right in this one.
And the power of MATH is real.

[Piipu]

This miss chance stuff is an interesting find, and explains why playing against CAS has gotten considerably more frustrating in the recent versions. Are there any news on fixing this issue? Or is the dev team going to ignore the issue once again like they always do when someone posts solid proof.

[Mats391]

This miss chance stuff is an interesting find, and explains why playing against CAS has gotten considerably more frustrating in the recent versions. Are there any news on fixing this issue? Or is the dev team going to ignore the issue once again like they always do when someone posts solid proof.

As far as we know the directionBonus is chance to miss not chance to hit. If you have information that it is other way round, we sure will change it. However "my SAM never hits" is no real proof, they also missed with higher directionBonus

[Piipu]

As far as we know the directionBonus is chance to miss not chance to hit. If you have information that it is other way round, we sure will change it. However "my SAM never hits" is no real proof, they also missed with higher directionBonus

I just flew around in test airfield for an hour to test this with friends. Against a chopper that's not flaring at all, the missiles do seem to kill around 90% of the time, but if the chopper drops flares, only around 20-30% of the missiles do any damage at all to the chopper. Chance of direct hits against the chopper is pretty close to the 10% reported here. And that's only if the AA has a chance of getting a lock in the first place.

This was tested against a chopper that just flies along a straight line towards the AA placement without trying any evasive maneuvers. As long as the chopper has flares left, it can pretty much ignore the AA completely, while the AA placement is easy to kill using just rockets. With a gunner using missiles, it's even easier.

The only thing that's effective against CAS choppers seem to be Tunguska-type AAVs with a direct-fire cannon that doesn't rely on getting locks. Otherwise flares just make hitting the chopper impossible. It sounds to me that either flares should be nerfed, or all maps should have AAVs that have cannons. Maybe the AA placements could be replaced with ZPU-4 AA cannons as well?

[Jacksonez__]

snip

Did you try this thing without locking on target?

[Piipu]

Did you try this thing without locking on target?

Yes, it seems to be more effective than trying to lock. Which seems pretty retarded if you ask me. Missile guidance exists for a reason.

[Jacksonez__]

Yes, it seems to be more effective than trying to lock. Which seems pretty retarded if you ask me. Missile guidance exists for a reason.

How AA manpads work part 145

AA works kind of randomly imo. That should have been 101% sure kill but I locked on and it missed somehow.

[solidfire93]

i took out cas and i saw ppl taking out jets with manpads

also i got shot down by manpads in jet.attack heli's,and trans before

and sometimes i didn't hit shit with Mobile AAV....

its just a matter of luck and good timing imo..

we should talk and find a solution for missile redirection bullshit,when you die with no warning or locks

but random most of the time at least its scares away the air threat...

[Piipu]

i took out cas and i saw ppl taking out jets with manpads

also i got shot down by manpads in jet.attack heli's,and trans before

and sometimes i didn't hit shit with Mobile AAV....

its just a matter of luck and good timing imo..

we should talk and find a solution for missile redirection bullshit,when you die with no warning or locks

but random most of the time at least its scares away the air threat...

Nobody is saying that it's impossible to kill things in the air, it's just way too hard. Usually you need to fire more than 4 missiles to get a kill against the chopper, when on most maps you don't even have so many missile launchers on the whole map. There's something wrong when missiles fired without a lock or cannons are far more effective against choppers than using guidance.

[rPoXoTauJIo]

How AA manpads work part 145

AA works kind of randomly imo. That should have been 101% sure kill but I locked on and it missed somehow.

1) AA missoles haz minimal guidance distance.
2) AA missoles haz minimal arm time.

[Spook]

How AA manpads work part 145

AA works kind of randomly imo. That should have been 101% sure kill but I locked on and it missed somehow.

That should have been a 1% sure kill and thats what it was. First of all the points mentioned by rpoxo and additionally missiles have a limited turn speed + you have to consider your ping and the servers FPS which would most likely not allow such a short shot to register. You would have gotten the chopper if you fired 1 second earlier (even without lock), or waited until it passed you and then shot at its back when it was still fairly close to you.

[Jacksonez__]

That should have been a 1% sure kill and thats what it was. First of all the points mentioned by rpoxo and additionally missiles have a limited turn speed + you have to consider your ping and the servers FPS which would most likely not allow such a short shot to register. You would have gotten the chopper if you fired 1 second earlier (even without lock), or waited until it passed you and then shot at its back when it was still fairly close to you.

I have two gifs also that have exactly same conditions: SAM hits flare: littlebird goes down, SAM hits flare: littlebird survives. Both were fired when I got the lock on buzz. See, both littlebirds dropped flares.

E: seems like the AA missile ignores the flares on second gif?





sorry for bad fps in gifs

It just works very very very randomly. I have shot CAS helicopter down (never recorded) when I lock on shoot at it and then they pop flares: the AA missile ignores flares and travels straight to target.

What you need is luck. You can shoot down a jet down with manpad even if they flare since the explosion radius will catch the jet and it will make it burn.

E2: When I shoot TOW and miss, I do understand why I missed it. When I shoot LAT and I miss, I understand (like, most of times) why I missed. But when I shoot AA I don't understand when I hit or when I don't.

[blayas]

saclos is coming for some AAVs, so we can perform our own techniques of engagement and the best .... without alerting CAS

And I agree with the possibility of having the ZPU-23-4 and m167 as an alternative fixed AAs of some nations.

[dalianplant[x64]]

saclos is coming for some AAVs, so we can perform our own techniques of engagement and the best .... without alerting CAS

And I agree with the possibility of having the ZPU-23-4 and m167 as an alternative fixed AAs of some nations.

Realisticly viewed asset whores will find their way to abuse that AAV system and soon after people will come back here and complain how AA is OP(not only against air assets) and it should be removed.