Coop and suppression effects... NOT RIGHT

[Madar_al_Fakar]

For some reason right now coop is basically a blindness simulator. bots just keep spraying non-stop bullets that don't hit but blind us ;(
Either reduce the effect by some 5 times at least or remove it completely! Bots aren't affected by it anyway... I play online mostly and never noticed problems with that. coop suppression seems to last longer and is more intense too. (?)

[SANGUE-RUIM]

I know this frustration and have to agree, I even talked about that some years ago... but I doubt there is anything to be done about it

[Gazza Sparkle]

Nothing will change only because it's coop and any dev I'd imagine would be working on something for multiplayer. But yeah it does put you at a disadvantage especially since bots can see through anything like bushes or grass but then again, bots aren't much of a real challenge.

[Fastjack]

The most problems with bots firing through vegetation on some maps (Lashkar excample) are the weapon.ai.

The weapons.ai telling the bots when they start to fire (distance) if they see a target, how close they walkup to the target in firingmode and what distance they stop walkup to the target and when shots getting more accurate.

If you play a map like Ramiel, the current weapon.ai isn"t a problem (as excample bots start firing at 200 meters). Its an open map with no woods (you can see from far distance the bots and the bots see you).

But ....

If you have the same weapon.ai on lashkar, bots also start to fire at a range at 200 meters but you aren"t able to shoot back because every 10 meters is a tree and bushes and you cannot see them.

Possible solution:

Create mapbased weapon.ai for coop based on shooting range.
Clone a weapon 3times and give Weapon.ai for 100meter, 150meter, 200meter (or other values, depends on ...)
Also, create kits with weapon.ai ranges for 100meter, 150 meters, 200 meters and add them to the layer. But is many work.

Or .... and better trick.

Every coop faction kit get his own weapons: AK47sp, M4A1sp etc. and all weapons having their own ai.template.
Dont integrate the new weapons.ai into the mod, put every used weapon.ai into the map, so you can adjust the values based on the map.

So you can have a M4A1sp_ai with firing range 300 meters on Ramiel and a M4A1sp_ai with a range of 80 meters on lashkar.

[Madar_al_Fakar]

Nothing will change only because it's coop and any dev I'd imagine would be working on something for multiplayer. But yeah it does put you at a disadvantage especially since bots can see through anything like bushes or grass but then again, bots aren't much of a real challenge.

Well I'm not completely out of faith. They've listened to co-op problems before and fixed some stuff, so I'm kinda hopeful they might do something about this

[Michael Z Freeman]

For some reason right now coop is basically a blindness simulator. bots just keep spraying non-stop bullets that don't hit but blind us ;(
Either reduce the effect by some 5 times at least or remove it completely! Bots aren't affected by it anyway... I play online mostly and never noticed problems with that. coop suppression seems to last longer and is more intense too. (?)

Coop/SP is also PR training mode so the bots do a pretty good job of teaching new players what suppression means.

The most problems with bots firing through vegetation on some maps (Lashkar excample) are the weapon.ai.

The weapons.ai telling the bots when they start to fire (distance) if they see a target, how close they walkup to the target in firingmode and what distance they stop walkup to the target and when shots getting more accurate.

If you play a map like Ramiel, the current weapon.ai isn"t a problem (as excample bots start firing at 200 meters). Its an open map with no woods (you can see from far distance the bots and the bots see you).

But ....

If you have the same weapon.ai on lashkar, bots also start to fire at a range at 200 meters but you aren"t able to shoot back because every 10 meters is a tree and bushes and you cannot see them.

Possible solution:

Create mapbased weapon.ai for coop based on shooting range.
Clone a weapon 3times and give Weapon.ai for 100meter, 150meter, 200meter (or other values, depends on ...)
Also, create kits with weapon.ai ranges for 100meter, 150 meters, 200 meters and add them to the layer. But is many work.

Or .... and better trick.

Every coop faction kit get his own weapons: AK47sp, M4A1sp etc. and all weapons having their own ai.template.
Dont integrate the new weapons.ai into the mod, put every used weapon.ai into the map, so you can adjust the values based on the map.

So you can have a M4A1sp_ai with firing range 300 meters on Ramiel and a M4A1sp_ai with a range of 80 meters on lashkar.

Interesting approach . I did experiment a while back with spawning an invisible sphere from a smoke grenade (with bullet blocking hull, or whatever its called). This in theory should have the effect of blocking bot targeting, simulating smoke for the AI. A similar approach could simulate suppression effects on bots. But I never got a chance to finish testing so don't know yet if that approach would work. There may also be other simpler approaches such as your weapon.ai suggestion.

[Fastjack]

It"s possible to create a smoke grenade, where the bots cannot firing through.
Satnav made one years ago.
Problem was, that the grappling hook also collide with the projectil meshes of the smoke and the hook hangs in air (smokecloud).

[Michael Z Freeman]

Yep, that's as far as I got. A couple of things.

1. What are the chances of someone using the grappling hook around a smoke grenade ? I guess in X number of games its going to happen at some point / could be used as an exploit, etc, etc,

2. There could be a fix for that with extra testing, and/or modifying of the approach and the grappling hook setup.

There could be something, but if its worth all the work, who knows ? The number of times I've seen the statement "that can't be done with the BF2 engine" and then someone has found an unexpected work around. A lot of it is faking stuff as well. There might be some function entirely unrelated to suppression or smoke but when added to the AI in someway fakes something which is like "suppression" or "smoke". Maybe the weapons.ai thing could be something like that.

[Steeps]

So you guys essentially want to make co-op even easier than it already is?

[Fastjack]

No, we only give feedback and talking about solutions for bf2 ai issues and things that no one talked before.

@ DJBarney.

Maybe you must change your goal with the ai smoke grenade.
Dont make it that bots stop firing if smoke is between you and them.

In MP, if smoke got used in a firefight, the other team will spray bullets into the smokecloud like there is no next morning.
I think i dont must explain WHY.

Create a projectil collisionmesh with holes. Let the bots shoot at you and make it so that some bullets going through your collsionmesh and have a chance to hit someone and some will hit the mesh and will not cause any damage to a unit.

This "hitting the smokemesh" simulates the "blocked view by smoke" effect and nerves the x-ray vision of the bots. You also dont lose the suppression effect for humans.
Keep the mesh small and low so the grappling hook exploit haven't much impact on the game.

Keep also in mind, grenadelaunchers, rockets and missiles can fuck up the whole team inside of the smoke if the rocket hit the smokemesh.

[Madar_al_Fakar]

Reminds me of the old Counter Strike Condition Zero, when there is a trick when u just throw a pathetic smoke grenade on the ground and stand right on it, the AI can't see you until in knife range. xD

Coop/SP is also PR training mode so the bots do a pretty good job of teaching new players what suppression means.

Aha except for the fact that being constantly blind is not something you will find in an online match, the bots take a shot and then proceed to make you blind, a human takes a shot (in his general direction, doesn't have to hit him) he ducks for cover -_-

[Fastjack]

But the bots also not running for cover like a player. They still coming up to you like hipfiring lemmings ... also when you in a light assault vehicle with big gun on it. No fear!

Bots don't camp positions or plan ambushes except you codded some goddies or placed some bipods for static defense.

I believe in SP the suppression effect feels/is higher because enemy bots mostly coming in a bunch and all firing at you and that maximize the suppression effect.

In online coop games (team human vs team bot) you will notice that the suppression effect doesn't feel so hard anymore. When you get suppressed behind a cover, move immedatly to the next bigger cover and break the LOS (lineofsight) and the suppression will stop because no bot can see you. Next of your step should be something like "let them come to you" and have a superior position.

And keep in mind ...... GRENADES FIRST !!!