jet cannons

[DogACTUAL]

Jet cannon drop is way too high on most if not all jets. If you fire rockets and cannon both at the same time you will see that the cannon has way more drop than the rockets even though the cannon shells are much faster.
You will notice the difference very clearly on maps with 3km view distance, but also on normal maps too.

Seems that this effect was increased quite a bit with the newest release.

Is it possible to give the cannons more real ballistics values?

[Rhino]

In previous release they had no drop. Drop was given to make them less effective aginst ground target strafing, although yes, possibly a bit OTT, it was super easy to snipe targets at 3km away before.

[Frontliner]

Jet cannon drop is way too high on most if not all jets. If you fire rockets and cannon both at the same time you will see that the cannon has way more drop than the rockets even though the cannon shells are much faster.

Is it possible to give the cannons more real ballistics values?

It is more realistic for gun rounds to have higher drops, they are not propelled throughout the flight unlike missiles and rockets so air resistance is going to drop their speed quickly, whereas the other two remain quite constant until their fuel runs out.

[Rhino]

It is more realistic for gun rounds to have higher drops, they are not propelled throughout the flight unlike missiles and rockets so air resistance is going to drop their speed quickly, whereas the other two remain quite constant until their fuel runs out.

Indeed, they also have thins to stabilise their trajectory.

[DogACTUAL]

It is more realistic for gun rounds to have higher drops, they are not propelled throughout the flight unlike missiles and rockets so air resistance is going to drop their speed quickly, whereas the other two remain quite constant until their fuel runs out.

I took that into account mate, but the thing is the gun shells reached the target well before the rockets when fired together at the same moment, which means they were faster than the rockets overall.
Afaik fins only stabalize the flight of the rocket but don't offer much buoyancy in the air.

So i think it is fair to simplify the math and treat it like a free fall scenario which would mean i am right, since that means the more the projectile is in the air the more drop it will experience.

[Frontliner]

I took that into account mate, but the thing is the gun shells reached the target well before the rockets when fired together at the same moment, which means they were faster than the rockets overall.

That doesn't matter. Rockets and missiles are way more massive compared to a cannon round, not to mention how much drag they will experience doesn't matter nearly as much as they are still propelled forward. Furthermore I would assume that modern unguided rockets are built to account for the drag for a few hundred meters because otherwise it'd be very hard to hit your target.

[DogACTUAL]

What can i say? It's physics mate, when one projectile reaches the target before the other one it drops less than the one that takes longer. It doesn't matter how big they are or how heavy.

Unless they have a really high suface to mass ratio, like a sheet of paper or something, that allows them to significantly slow down their fall thanks to air friction. Which isn't the case here since the overall shape of a 30mm cannon round and a 50mm rocket are similar, the rocket is longer but also weighs more in return.

And the fins don't quite cut it, considering they are meant primarily for stabalization, if they really had high air resistance the rocket would have even more drop since it would be pointing way more downwards unless it has additional weight on the back part which in turn would equal out the added buoyancy again.

Also the rockets aren't meant to be very accurate, they are more of an area effect weapon, designed to be fired in volleys to cover a big area, a good bit of inaccuracy is even intended.

Yes, the rocket has more mass, kinetic energy and inertia, but if the cannon round reaches the target first all of that doesn't matter, that means the rocket must have more drop.

[rPoXoTauJIo]

What can i say? It's physics mate, when one projectile reaches the target before the other one it drops less than the one that takes longer.

Even if one have engine force applied during flight time and another one not?

[PatrickLA_CA]

Most cannons should barely have any drop on targets closer than 1km. They fly with a much greater speed which is what DogACTUAL is trying to say and their drop will begin when they lose their speed.

The unguided rockets shouldn't really have any drop as well in distances such as the maps in PR can provide.

[DogACTUAL]

Even if one have engine force applied during flight time and another one not?

Yes, unless the rocket engine actually propels the rockets at a more upward angle instead of a perfectly horizontal one, maybe if the rockets are tilted slightly upward during the flight.

That is the only reason i can think of why the rocket would have less drop than the cannon, because like i said, i tested it ingame and the rockets are definitely slower than the cannon rounds but have less drop than them.

So unless the rocket is propelled at an upward angle this can't be physically correct afaik.

Also remember that those kind of rockets quickly stop propulsion after launch, the motor will only generate thrust for around the first 500m at max, most of those kind of rockets at even shorter distances like 300m. Once they reached that point they will just fly to their target like a regular projectile.

[Rhino]

Physics aside, do you have any good gameplay arguments for either making cannon rounds drop less or having rockets drop more?

[viirusiiseli]

Physics aside, do you have any good gameplay arguments for either making cannon rounds drop less or having rockets drop more?

Bullet drop from everything other than things like SPG-9 should be removed tbh, BF2 engine just makes it a terrible experience. Latency, hitreg and other normal issues already make it hard enough already in PR.

Of course if you need reasoning, things like range tables, laser ranging and even automatic range adjusting are pretty common nowadays.

But like said before, it's just an extra feature that provides very little, but detracts a lot from gameplay.

[DogACTUAL]

Physics aside, do you have any good gameplay arguments for either making cannon rounds drop less or having rockets drop more?

I would rather that you decrease the drop on the cannons first and then adjust both rocket and cannon drop to authentic levels.
But this is your game, you put in all the work so you get to decide, not some guy on your forums that just nags about some stuff.

But tbh the drop doesn't make it that harder to hit ground targets. Before i wouldn't even fire at ranges like 3 or 2km because of the gun deviation at that range and the target not being very visible from that distance anyway.
Now i either just dive straight down for a surprise attack with the added benefit of no drop off or just do some test shots first and then it is quite easy to adjust your aim.

It is really more difficult to hit other jets at greater ranges like over 500m now though, since many of them have bad hit reg on top, sometimes i hit a skyhawk 20x with the cannon and it still isn't even smoking, but that is only i minor annoyance.

But overall the huge drop on the cannons is just very irritating tbh, whenever you fire it it just seems quite ridiculous and gamey.

I am more of a guy that likes weapons stats, vehicle stats and their behaviour to be as authentic as possible, doesn't matter to me if it is a nerf or a buff as long as it is becomes more authentic, but i can understand that sometimes that doesn't work for gameplay reasons.

[schakal811]

Sorry for being offtopic; which kind of weapon have bulletdrop right now in the game? I think I heard eveything with tracers isnt affected (not talking about lats, grenadelauncher, etc ofc).

[M42 Zwilling]

Pretty much everything, some like APC projectiles and such just have such a small gravity modifier that it is barely noticeable. I don't know who told you about the tracers, that isn't true.

[Rhino]

Of course if you need reasoning, things like range tables, laser ranging and even automatic range adjusting are pretty common nowadays.

I'm unaware of any aircraft that has its cannons automatically adjusted for ranging on a target. Although yes, most modern fighters have a HUD showing a funnel for the path of the projectiles and if you have radar lock on the target, where you need to aim to hit it:



But then again, dumb bombs also have a similar HUD with a "Constantly computed impact point", but just because we can't do this doesn't mean we don't have our bombs not drop either

It is really more difficult to hit other jets at greater ranges like over 500m now though, since many of them have bad hit reg on top, sometimes i hit a skyhawk 20x with the cannon and it still isn't even smoking, but that is only i minor annoyance.

I personally haven't had any issues with dogfighting with cannons and scored most of my kills with cannons since the release. As for you hitting a "skyhawk 20x with the cannon and it still isn't even smoking", that has nothing to do with the drop, the only thing here was you and the server disagreeing with where the skyhawk was. Wouldn't have mattered if you had drop or not, you were seeing the jet in a different place from where the server saw it, so you would have only actually hit it, if you missed it on your screen

I am more of a guy that likes weapons stats, vehicle stats and their behaviour to be as authentic as possible, doesn't matter to me if it is a nerf or a buff as long as it is becomes more authentic, but i can understand that sometimes that doesn't work for gameplay reasons.

Well going back to no drop on the cannons would be far less authentic and in DCS etc the cannons have huge drops there too.

But even with the drops, I've been finding it still really easy to pick off ground targets with only taking small bursts to kill a Tigercat or an RH202 etc that was irritating me


If we were to reduce the cannon drop, what do you guys feel about the idea of reducing the splash damage of cannon rounds from jets aginst ground targets, so they would basically need direct hits to kill anything on the ground?

[DogACTUAL]

I know that the drop doesn't cause the hitreg issues, what i meant is that it is already hard enough with those issues to get a gun kill, but you are right, there are also many instances where the hitreg is working perfectly (low ping).

Also i don't want to have cannons to have no drop, i would like them to have normal drop that is authentic.

Yes i too find it easy to take out ground targets with the cannons despite the big drop off, my issue with the drop is that it is really weird because it is over the top.

Please do not reduce cannon splash unless the current splash is greater than irl. Cannons are supposed to be intimidating and dangerous, a nerf would make it only worse imo. I know PR doesn't aim to be a simulator and is focused on gameplay, but that would be even bad for gameplay imo.

I am not really freaked out by the drop or something, i still like using the cannons, it is just something i noticed and wanted to talk about.

[viirusiiseli]

I'm unaware of any aircraft that has its cannons automatically adjusted for ranging on a target. Although yes, most modern fighters have a HUD showing a funnel for the path of the projectiles and if you have radar lock on the target, where you need to aim to hit it:

I guess I wasn't clear, I was straying a bit off the topic of the thread and pointing at armor.

But then again, dumb bombs also have a similar HUD with a "Constantly computed impact point", but just because we can't do this doesn't mean we don't have our bombs not drop either

Bombs are quite different in the way that drop on them is both realistic and fits the game without causing any problems. Things such as the impact point do have other ways they could be portrayed such as decreasing the drop instead of removing it completely. That's a very fallacious comparison.

With jet cannons, you are already met with the problem of hitting the jet or helicopter and not registering them due to latency. This is already extremely frustrating. Adding drop which contributes very little to nothing for gameplay and only gives us a tiny bit of realism makes that problem even more prominent.

Wouldn't have mattered if you had drop or not, you were seeing the jet in a different place from where the server saw it, so you would have only actually hit it, if you missed it on your screen

Bullet drop doesn't have an effect on the hit registration, but it does add another unnecessary variable to trying to hit a flying target. I personally think the bad hitreg of BF2 engine and server latency are enough variables, but hey, that's just me. I would much prefer gameplay over a tiny bit of realism on this issue.

Well going back to no drop on the cannons would be far less authentic and in DCS etc the cannons have huge drops there too.

It would be a little bit less authentic. It would be a lot better for gameplay. I don't think many people complained about the lack of bullet drop on cannons before. I don't think anyone would have complained about it if they realized it would make hitting a jet even worse than it already was. And I may not know much about DCS but I think their engine isn't as limited and cannons there may have other redeeming qualities.

But even with the drops, I've been finding it still really easy to pick off ground targets with only taking small bursts to kill a Tigercat or an RH202 etc that was irritating me

That's pretty obvious since ground targets either don't move or move slowly. All the problems appear when both shooter and target are moving at a high rate of speed.

If we were to reduce the cannon drop, what do you guys feel about the idea of reducing the splash damage of cannon rounds from jets against ground targets, so they would basically need direct hits to kill anything on the ground?

Even completely without the cannon drop, most cannons are underpowered. Once we can start penetrating houses and light bunkers with cannons then you can start removing the splash damage from them if you feel like it. Right now I think even more splash is required to counter not being able to shoot through any walls. Not to mention we now have larger deviation too.

Pretty much all autocannons from armor to helicopters to jets were underpowered already, with the exception of GAU-8 and Shipunov 2A42. The M242 for example is complete garbage. Their real life penetration and suppressive elements aren't portrayed in the game but their splash remains either the same or less than RL.

But since there appears to be a clear direction of mostly just nerfing all armor and no splash buff will be introduced you may as well add the suppression range of all ≥20mm cannons to similar values as the MK19 or even larger. So you can not kill anyone but at least you can make them not fire LATs at you like nothing is happening.

As far as armor mounted MG and HMG, I strongly believe there shouldn't be any drop. Ever since coax drop was introduced you have the often occurring situation where you're required to fire 100-250 rounds to kill a single enemy in the open. It's quite ridiculous.

[X-Alt]

I guess I wasn't clear, I was straying a bit off the topic of the thread and pointing at armor.



Pretty much all autocannons from armor to helis to jets were underpowered already, with the exception of GAU-8 and Shipunov 2A42. The M242 for example is complete garbage. Their real life penetration and suppressive elements aren't portrayed in the game but their splash remains either the same or less than RL.


As far as armor mounted MG and HMG, I strongly believe there shouldn't be any drop. Ever since coax drop was introduced you have the often occurring situation where you're required to fire 100-250 rounds to kill a single enemy in the open. It's quite ridiculous.

Double autocannon damage across the board instead of nerfing overheats 24\7. I heard that a planned damage buff was voted against almost unanimously, even though it'd singlehandedly fix BF3 style APC combat forever.

[viirusiiseli]

Double autocannon damage across the board instead of nerfing overheats 24\7. I heard that a planned damage buff was voted against almost unanimously, even though it'd singlehandedly fix BF3 style APC combat forever.

Tanks got their update and despite it being annoying occasionally its going in the right direction. APCs have had this ridiculous shooting at each other and not killing fighting style for as long as I remember and I don't understand why. It's been mentioned in the forums before I think. It takes ridiculous amounts of AP to kill an APC that would be done for after a simple burst of hits IRL. Of course M2A2 and Puma would be different but most APCs are all the same armor wise, weak.

But this is going off topic isn't it ))