Jets in 1.4

[viirusiiseli]

overall it is way better and more fun that what we had before.

Spoiler for graphic sexual content:

new flight physics more fun

Most of the complainers are just triggered because they have to learn flying all over again when before the flight physics actually made sense.

Fixed.

Now to actually respond to your badly formed bait argument, I actually do know how to fly with the new physics. It is by no means hard to fly with them or learn how to handle the jets. Make no mistake though, this does not mean at all that they are appropriate for gameplay, realistic or well enough implemented to be in this game.

...the new system [has] many advantages...

[citation needed]

Also viirus, can you elaborate what exactly is wrong with the A10 pullup in your video?

1.4.5 A-10 pulling up
Pre-1.4 A-10 pulling up
Pre-1.4 A-10 pulling up
RL A-10 pulling up
RL A-10 pulling up

See for yourself which one looks closer to a RL example.

[DogACTUAL]

You don't have to get so mad, the 'triggered because having to learn to fly all over again' line wasn't directed at you, i know you are very skilled at PR. Only the A10 question was directed at you, not to imply that you were wrong, just because i was genuinely curious about what you meant exactly.

I can see your point watching the videos about the A10, on page 2 of this thread you can actually see me addressing this in a post. I just wanted to know what exactly you disliked about the A10 pullup, the speed, the turn radius or the way it rolled?

I know you have you very own reasons for disliking the flight model and there are some things about it that i criticize myself.
Of course there are still refinements to make, the DEV responsible already noted that he doesn't like the way the attack aircraft and F15 behave right now.

All i am saying is that i think the new flight model overall is better than the old one, simply for introducing new mechanics that open up more possibilities and make flying more interesting and mostly more realistic.


Some advantages of the new flight model:

-Better speed variation, throttle reacts much faster, very good for more calculated gun runs.

-Less of the notoric turnfights, more emphasis on skill.

-More realism: Previous flight model had no gravity, you could just do vertical loops with max pitch without losing altitude overall, you would essentially keep flying the exact same loop in the exact same spot, like the jet was on some kind of invisible rails. now if you do that eventually you will hit the ground.

-Mostly looks cooler from the ground, thanks to the inertia jets experience now. Flybys look more real now (yes A10 and other attackers look strange though).

-Stall outs at low speed are way better now, before the nose would just start pulling straight down below a certain speed no matter the orientation of the aircraft. That meant if you weren't flying really high that you would crash regardless of gaining speed again.
Now you can stall out in horizontal alignment or with nose up at much lower altitude and still be able to safely get away by gaining speed again. This allows for various manouvers not possible previously.
Also gives more possibilities for landing, like coming in to the runway high with very low speed and nose upwards and then accelerating again close to the runway to get a soft landing.

-Applying maximum pitch and roll in every siuation isn't rewarded anymore, the aircraft has limits and yanking it too hard in many directions at the same moment messes up the jet, this emphasises to be more thoughtful and more skill in controlling jets.

[PatrickLA_CA]

Mate this isn't about skill. Look at the new jets pull up and turn, they look absolutely ridiculous, most would fall apart doing that IRL and the rest won't be able to do such things because of physics. Previous physics looked and felt more realistic, yeah you couldn't do any fancy maneuvers but you don't really need to. Not like these maneuvers actually help nowadays in PR.

[viirusiiseli]

You don't have to get so mad, the having to learn to fly all over again line wasn't directed at you, i know you are very skilled at PR.

To say all the people complaining are mad bcuz bad is in any case a useless thing to say no matter who it's directed at.

[DogACTUAL]

That is not what i meant, it might seem like i implied it but it wasn't my intention. Many of the people that are complaining are good pilots and have been doing CAS longer than me.

I just think that it was such a radical change to jets that many got 'triggered' because they were so accustomed and attached to the previous flight model.
Now they are arguing because of some glitches and unintended consequences like the F15 and A10, the whole flight model is shit, instead of appreciating the many new advantages it brought and that it is overall a more dynamic and better model.

Look i am not saying i am better and mastered the new model, i am still not used to it very much.
I still mess up my jet a lot when trying to quickly roll and pitch at the same moment and it is really hard for me to hit jets with the cannon now.

All i am saying is people need to give this a chance and consider the many advantages this model has, instead of complaining about glitches and rough spots that will be getting fixed anyway.

[PatrickLA_CA]

Why can't it just get reverted like the change to the armor vehicle turrets until there's a better solution?

[DogACTUAL]

Because the few issues it has right now are not gamebreaking unlike the slide turrets and the overall mechanics are good. I think that is why the DEVs didn't remove it and i agree with that view, but that's just my opinion.

What exactly do you think is bad about the flight model apart from the F15 and A10 that get mentioned everytime?

[PatrickLA_CA]

Well I find it pretty gamebreaking when the F15 and the A10 are on the same map and they glitch out. The rest is okay-ish, I just think the drag is excessive when turning oh and the drop on the cannons doesn't help.

[DogACTUAL]

So i know the F15 and A10 have issues of course, but i flew them many instances (very much on test airfield too) since the update and they only glitched out like 3 times in the first weeks. It also really doesn't happen anymore to me since i started paying attention to not pitch and roll at the same moment with maximum input, that's usually what triggers it.

On the cannon drop i agree 100%! Even created a thread about it: https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f254-vehicles/143673-jet-cannons.html

[PricelineNegotiator]

Dog, everyone has already told you what you are asking, but no one finds it imperative to specifically address you. It's bits and pieces scattered throughout this thread, no one wants to take a half hour to compose a reply.

we're just going to have to swallow this load, because nobody wants to spend this much time on something to just trash it.

it will be "tweaked" and "fixed" back into a playable form that isn't quite what anyone wanted in the first place.

Unfortunately one person's pride is unquestionable at this point. I remember trying to start a thread with a poll at the top, only to be met with being called an uneducated Trump voter and having my thread locked.

[DogACTUAL]

Dog, everyone has already told you what you are asking, but no one finds it imperative to specifically address you. It's bits and pieces scattered throughout this thread, no one wants to take a half hour to compose a reply.

All i can see here is just muh F15 and A10 stall glitch and muh flow demolition and maybe something like the inertia is overdone, but sure.

I remember trying to start a thread with a poll at the top, only to be met with being called an uneducated Trump voter and having my thread locked.

Lmao, that was shit tier.

[BlackGus]

Persist the problem with A4

[Volksgrenadier]

You have nicely wrecked the jets' flying physics. Now they're not realistic, NOR playable. You can never make this game a flying simulator so why try make the flying physics ''more realistic''? The flight characteristics right now are the perfect mix of non-playable **** mixed with unrealistic flight behaviour. Worst of both worlds.

How many times IRL you've seen F-15 or other fighter jet flatspinning/stalling after tight turn?

Also nice job making the game even more n00b friendly by buffing the AA missiles and enhancing their re-tracking capability, and decreasing cannon ammunition from jets to even more unrealistic levels.

[DogACTUAL]

Also nice job making the game even more n00b friendly by buffing the AA missiles and enhancing their re-tracking capability

Me and other noticed that too and afaik it was not mentioned in the changelogs. And if it was, it was probably hidden very well.

Very strange that you wouldn't think a change like this would be worth mentioning clearly in the changelogs.

It is a huge difference, before preflaring actually worked and now if you go a bit lower than 800m preflaring seems to have no effect and the AA will most likely shoot you down.

[viirusiiseli]

How many times IRL you've seen F-15 or other fighter jet flatspinning/stalling after tight turn?

Yup, had this happen in this patch again. Totally sucks trying to turn to a jet and losing control so the only thing you can do is keep slowing down while waiting to be shot down. Breaks the balance in the map since enemy team has 4 jets and F-15, when it was extremely good, worked as the buffer against the MEC jets. No more.

[rPoXoTauJIo]

How many times IRL you've seen F-15 or other fighter jet flatspinning/stalling after tight turn?

Issue with F15(aswell as with A-10 and couple of other jets) been known and already received a fix in dev branch.

Also nice job making the game even more n00b friendly by buffing the AA missiles and enhancing their re-tracking capability

We dont have any control in this part, so i have no idea how we made game more n00b friendly here.

and decreasing cannon ammunition from jets to even more unrealistic levels.

Can you name specific ones? So far i only remember "nerfing" mig-29 as it's had 150 rounds only in early variants.

Yup, had this happen in this patch again. Totally sucks trying to turn to a jet and losing control so the only thing you can do is keep slowing down while waiting to be shot down. Breaks the balance in the map since enemy team has 4 jets and F-15, when it was extremely good, worked as the buffer against the MEC jets. No more.

Yet it's related to jets physics, map balance is another thing.

[DogACTUAL]

There is totally something different about SAMs, they are way more effective than before.

[LiamBai]

I think it's to do with jet motion now. The slower response time to turns and such makes it easier for AA to actually hit... I think.

[DogACTUAL]

I think it's to do with jet motion now. The slower response time to turns and such makes it easier for AA to actually hit... I think.

Could be, you are right. But what is for sure is that there is a trend that's going on for a while now to nerf assets, especially CAS, overall.

[Volksgrenadier]

Can you name specific ones? So far i only remember "nerfing" mig-29 as it's had 150 rounds only in early variants.

Yes MIG-29 is one, but for example, should the poor MEC have the newer variants which have only 100 rounds? Also ammunition from USMC Harrier, F-15, and F-18 got reduced. Maybe even F-16, haven't flown it in v.1.4. Also, the same M61 in F-15E makes a lot less damage than M61 in Falcon or Hornet, so I'd like to see that being fixed aswell.

Even the ''older'' ammo counts weren't realistic in PR. F-16 used to carry 172 rds, F-18 300 rds, F-15E 450 rds, and A-10 500 rds. Real numbers are:

F-16: 511 rds
F-18: 578 rds
F-15E: 510 rds
A-10: 1174 rds
AV-8B: 300 rds

As you can see, american-made jets carry a decent amount of ammo. Reason is the small size of 20 mm round, less hitting power, and high rate of fire of M61 compared to bigger, single or twin barrel guns used by europeans. So why not make them realistic? Those are the real loadouts I've found from several sources. I can't find any solid data why above-mentioned jets would carry the amount of gun ammo as in the game right now. I also can't see any rational reason why they would load the jet with less than maximum number of rounds.

As far as I can see, there is no way to justify this with ''real world numbers'', or even gameplay reasons. There is no way few hundred rounds of gun ammo would turn a jet into OP killing machine as you keep buffing the AA missiles which require no skill to use whatsoever. Also the BF2-like handling of MIG-29 and F-15 in last patch were a lot more lethal thing than having realistic amount of ammunition for the guns.