Dogfighting and flares

[Teunvd]

Hey, Since the new flare update (or missle) is dogfighting not fun anymore... If you only lock once, you will kill right away.. The flares just dont work anymore, doesn't matter how you flare... Spamming doesn't work, with delay doesn't work, nothing works...

Is there maybe a way that i dont know? (pls dont be a troll and say i suck in flying cas.. This is a serious thread..).. I hope in the new update it is different, so you can do good, long, and nice dogfights..

[Hunter291]

flares work you use them wrong

[PBAsydney]

flares work you use them wrong

Nah, they don't really work right now, especially against ground AA which has a disgustingly high kill rate against flaring aircraft.

[DogACTUAL]

It's true, once the aircraft was locked and a missile is away, the chances of a hit are very high, bordering on near certainty. Wouldn't be that big of a deal though if all aircraft had more flares available (or the option to dispense only one flare at a time).

[Lugi]

It's true, once the aircraft was locked and a missile is away, the chances of a hit are very high, bordering on near certainty. Wouldn't be that big of a deal though if all aircraft had more flares available (or the option to dispense only one flare at a time).

Doesn't aircraft IRL always dump more than one flare? Cause one flare only reduces your chance of getting hit by 1/2.

Also I always thought the number of flares is pretty realistic after they upped the number like 3 or 4 years ago.

[CAS_ual_TY]

I might be wrong on this, but from what I can see the missile either hits your jet, or the latest set of flares you have popped. And since a lot of people spam them until the lock is either gone or the jet is gone, the missile will hit flares that are still very close to the jet -> jet gets hit by splash

Havent tested it much since the update, but the times I did fly I have seen that.

[Lugi]

I might be wrong on this, but from what I can see the missile either hits your jet, or the latest set of flares you have popped. And since a lot of people spam them until the lock is either gone or the jet is gone, the missile will hit flares that are still very close to the jet -> jet gets hit by splash

Havent tested it much since the update, but the times I did fly I have seen that.

Yup, its probably this. You just gotta do what pilots IRL do - using countermeasures right after attacking or even while approaching the target. I've seen this in a video of A10s training strafing runs. They attack, pull up and drop flares.

(take everything I say on this matter with a grain of salt as I'm no expert on military aviation)

[DogACTUAL]

Yep and that's why i want more flares. Because right now preventitive flaring is the safest way to go, but current flare numbers are not enough to stay in action for a reasonable duration because of that. Especially helicopters because they queef out many at once and use them up too fast.

IRL a greater number of flares in the air might be more effective, but ingame a single flare will disrupt the aa aquisition process just as well as multiple do.
Even IRL if you watch some combat footage you will see some attack helicopters just dumping one or two flares.

IIRC real aircraft generally can select how many flares to dispence at once. And yes, the missile hitting the closest flare might have something to do with the great effectiveness of AA. I did some experiments and even if you just lock a flare and fire there is a good chance the missile will go for the actual aircraft and hit.

[Aleon]

Interestingly enough I had no problems with flaring missiles with helicopters since the patch. For Jets, it's a lot different, I've killed and got killed pretty much exclusively with a single lock. Could be variance, as I don't CAS that often, but it definitely feels like pre-emptive flaring is the only way to flare for jets at the moment. I don't mind this at all for ground AA, since you get to chose when you put yourself in the way of harm, but it's kinda lame that first lock wins every dogfight.

Also I always thought the number of flares is pretty realistic after they upped the number like 3 or 4 years ago.

If DCS is worth anything as a source (and if I recall correctly), CAS aircraft may carry flares and chaffs in the triple digits. But I don't really think realism should be a concern here, aircraft are quite special in PR anyway.

[FFG]

If I remember what mats told me when we were testing AA and Flares, that the engine can only show 4 "heat signatures" for AA missiles. So if you pop too many flares, it will attract the AA missile towards the Jet.

The current state of AA and Jets. If you're using your jet correctly to focus Anti Air, you can be extremely powerful. If you're YOLO XD rushing to kill tanks, your gonna die.

[fecht_niko]

What? AA can kill CAS that flies over it?
Pls nerf AA so I can gunrun superfobs, tanks & INF again.

[DogACTUAL]

You can still gun run just as well as before if you preflare, this is more about how once a missile is launched at a jet that wasn't flaring flares will mostly not be able to spoof it.

Gun running tanks doesn't really work anymore since the armour update, tanks are very resistant to regular jet cannons now to a point that it has become impractical to do gun runs on them. You'd have to basically hit ALL of your available cannon rounds in the rear armour of the tank and do multiple gun runs on the same tank to destroy it. If you hit the front or side armour they will not get destroyed, even if you hit it with ALL of your available rounds.

You'd know that if you would actually play CAS once in a while.

[FFG]

-snip-

Jets apart from A-10 SU-25/39 fire HE from their cannon, not AP.

[DogACTUAL]

There are rounds out there for the M61 that combine AP with HE, but even then they shouldn't be able to effectively take out tanks imo. So i am perfectly fine with the M61 or other jet guns not being able to effectively engage tanks, i always thought it was silly before the armour update that a 20mm could just blow up the tank with a few rounds on the front armour.

I just wanted to drive home the point for all those asset haters that always assume CAS=too OP.

[fecht_niko]

There are rounds out there for the M61 that combine AP with HE, but even then they shouldn't be able to effectively take out tanks imo. So i am perfectly fine with the M61 or other jet guns not being able to effectively engage tanks, i always thought it was silly before the armour update that a 20mm could just blow up the tank with a few rounds on the front armour.

I just wanted to drive home the point for all those asset haters that always assume CAS=too OP.

Who cares about assets if there are LAT kits available

[Jagira]

Who cares about assets if there are LAT kits available

He has transcended. The next step of evolution.

[Menuen]

Did you know that pilot cant hear first locking sound from hand-held AA, you can only hear second one but it's to late to do anything because rocket is already comming.

Oh and Niko tell me how should I fly on Muttrah, Xiangshan or Pavlosk when one AA can cover almost all of the flags that are in play? Use lazes, sure but you know how it is you gonna get one laze (if you are lucky) gonna do one run then you need to go rtb because you preflared and you have like 20 flares left.

[fecht_niko]

Did you know that pilot cant hear first locking sound from hand-held AA, you can only hear second one but it's to late to do anything because rocket is already comming.

Oh and Niko tell me how should I fly on Muttrah, Xiangshan or Pavlosk when one AA can cover almost all of the flags that are in play? Use lazes, sure but you know how it is you gonna get one laze (if you are lucky) gonna do one run then you need to go rtb because you preflared and you have like 20 flares left.

teamwork, get a sniper in your squad and let him kill the marked AA on the maps.
A LAT can 1-shot any AAV.

What do you think is the purpose of AA if it cant kill CAS?

But I would agree on a more skilled AA system (like Blowpipe) in order to kill CAS.

-Handheld AA guided
-Stationary AA or AAV fire&forget

[Heavy Death]

Teamwork takes time. And whoever hit that create squad button at the right milisecond is entitled to immediate pewpew.

Also expansion of PR maths: Teamwork < Gameplay =/= Realism

[Menuen]

teamwork, get a sniper in your squad and let him kill the marked AA on the maps.
A LAT can 1-shot any AAV.

What do you think is the purpose of AA if it cant kill CAS?

But I would agree on a more skilled AA system (like Blowpipe) in order to kill CAS.

-Handheld AA guided
-Stationary AA or AAV fire&forget

Yeah sure first someone needs to find AA (now how can you find him if he didn't shot?), second you need to get close to him or find a good position to shoot him. Third AAV usually is hiding somewhere so it's hard to spot him and usually he is waiting close to your main or next to enemy tanks,inf. To operate a cas squad you need to have 2 pilots commander, spoter, lat and one guy that's looking for AAs. And even if you have them there will be always one guy camping in the bush. Even when you have all this you wait 20mins for CAS another 5 min is spoter looking for safe target and then you need to reaload for like 2 min. So you will have like 3-6 runs before rounds ends or you die by camping AA next to your main or behind lines.

Guided AAs are too OP, With blowpipe you can snipe helis from 800m if you are good, and from 400m it's easy. Stormer it's just stupidly OP. On Xiangshan if someone shoots AA and you didn't preflared you are dead (Even if rocket hits your flares that are 20m away, you will not make it to main)