CAS not affecting gameplay.(?)

[Fuller]

Hey guys.

With all the changes to armor in the recent patches (which contributed to a better gameplay experience) i was wondering if something similar could be done to CAS.
So what was the effect of the new armor system?

1.) Increased survivabilty in (symmetric) firefights.
(No more ATGM oneshots to the front, more thermal smoke for concealment)
So tanks can stay longer on the battlefield to support infantry.

2.) Tanks are more vulnerable to LAT which makes them considerable weaker in urban environments.

3.) Retreating in a symmetric engagement is now an option where it was a big problem before. (Khami: T-72 without thermal smoke vs. abrams with thermal smoke. Silent: T-90 ATGM oneshots. Bijar: Merkava (ATGM/IR-Smoke) vs. T72 (nothing).)

4.) Tanks became "weaker" against infantry because they can't conceal in non IR smoke anymore like APCs. (APCs can drop ammo and the driver can spam smoke nades all over the place)

--> Btw. what do you think about IR smoke grenades for specific kits? (HAT/Combat Engineer)

All those changes led to a better tank gameplay where the tank crews can stay longer in combat.
I'd really like to see something similar with the CAS gameplay because at the moment CAS has little impact on the battlefield and they are fighting almost unnoticed by everyone else.

1.) Increase jet hitpoints so that jets can retreat for repairs after being hit by a rocket.
2.) Increase amount of flairs.
3.) Increase rapair time so that the enemy gains an advantage for damaging the enemy jets. (similar to tanks which have to return to main base to repair but are a lot slower. 70mph vs. 1000mph )
4.)Increase survivabilty of ground attack planes even further (A-10/SU-25) so they can support their infantry.
5.) Change the loadouts in such a way that CAS has to interact more with their infantry/tanks. Maybe give IFV/Tanks the ability to laze targets.
For example on Khami we have A-10, F-15E and F16(?).
Thats a jet purely designed for CAS (A-10), a fighter bomber (F-15 E) and a multirole
in an air to air configuration.
In the worst case scenario the enemy loses all their jets and USA none.
Holy sh** that's ALOT of ordinance flying around (something like 12 JDAMS, 2 Mavericks, 38 Rockets, 1200 rounds of 20mm and 30mm)
Currently that's fine because in the first five minutes a lot of jets die but that is a bad* way to balance assets :/ (* unsatisfiyng way for the players)
A better way would be to send those damaged jets back to main for R&R.
Regarding loadouts i'd like to see more air-to-ground missiles like Mavericks/Brimstones and less bombs. Rewarding "precision" strikes vs. "dumb" bombs so that you really need a SL/spotter/commander.

(new) A-10
1x Gau-8 1350 rounds 30mm
4x Maverick
2x38 Rockets
1x500lbs JDAM
2x AIM9-L

(new) F-15 E
2x AIM 9L
4x AMRAAM
4x Maverick
2x JDAM 500lbs
2x Dumb bomb 1000 lbs.


I'd like to write a lot more but it's already a wall of text so i will keep the rest for another post
Thx for reading

[bahiakof]

I'll be realistic. What is lacking is teamwork, not improving CAS.

Do you want to have more teamwork between assets (CAS, MBT and IFV / APC) and less VANILLA in PR?
A: Remove the killers count from the gunners, and these assets will be used only as infantry support, not to generate "HIGH FRAGS".

[LimitJK]

i know your post was aiming at cas gameplay, but your underlying analysis of the gameplay changes by the armour updates (/atgm nerfs) is mostly wrong or lead you to the wrong conclusions.

1.) the only symmetric adversary left for tanks are other tanks. the update didnt increase survivability, it cancelled the risk of dying to any other threat present before the update completely out.

2.) tru

3.) didnt change relevantly

4.) complete bs, tanks dont have to smoke themselves because there is nothing that can kill them. infantry is no threat to tanks at all on most maps.

tanks stay longer in combat because they became invulnerable from the moment they killed the enemy tanks until cas comes up (if it survives dogfighting)+ cas isnt reliable in killing tanks either.
an asset that powerfull, with that much killing potential should be way more punishing if used careless, which it isnt.

example: kashan tanks spawn at round start, i saw one just rolling up straight next to south bunker flag, killed all logis, half the team, a chopper and most of trans trucks. we couldnt get any fob up inside bunker area. when cas spawned 20min later the round was already lost for 15min.
nothing to do about that, besides shoveling up a TOW behind the tank while an AR is distracting it

so yeah either do something about that or i am actually in favor of cas buff, if thats the only remaining counter.

[AlonTavor]

As bahiakof said, what's lacking is teamwork, not jet strength. You shouldn't bomb an area an AA might be active. On CAS maps, players should treat AAs the same way they treat HATs and tows - high priority to report.

Next patch flares will be adjusted a bit. Laser rework will make it very easy to laze long range targets, even moving ones, but easier for tanks to react properly if they know the direction of the person lazing them.

[LimitJK]

as in passive protection system with indicator when being lazed for tanks?

[Fuller]

@Limit I think my analysis is quite right that's why i posted it^^

There was never a "real" threat on the battlefield except enemy tanks if you are in a tank.
Sneaky TOW/APC will still destroy your tank pre and post tank buff...tactics might have changed a little bit but these things never had a chance in a symmetric firefight.

4.)In certain situations, especially in a more or less CQB environment (e.g.Gaza) tanks greatly benefit from non thermal smoke.

Your kashan example is rather weird oO
So you are telling me that an enemy tank was faster at the south bunkers than your trans chopper? LOL
That just tells a lot more about your team than about tank balance^^

[Fuller]

What i'm suggesting is more of a tradeoff, lose some firepower (in certain areas) and gain some survivability.
I'm just trying to start a quality conversation without the usual " #CAS OP pls nerf XOXO" bullsh**.

[AlonTavor]

as in passive protection system with indicator when being lazed for tanks?

lazes will need line of sight to work, no more "stick", no more "projectiles". Instant, but not lag compensated. Breaking line of sight will make it impossible to laze, it won't "stick" for 20 seconds anymore. Smoking up and moving around will make it hard to laze.

[Heavy Death]

example: kashan tanks spawn at round start, i saw one just rolling up straight next to south bunker flag, killed all logis, half the team, a chopper and most of trans trucks. we couldnt get any fob up inside bunker area. when cas spawned 20min later the round was already lost for 15min.
nothing to do about that, besides shoveling up a TOW behind the tank while an AR is distracting it:!

If your tanks were not at A1 "hunting"... its teamwork.

[solidfire93]

lazes will need line of sight to work, no more "stick", no more "projectiles". Instant, but not lag compensated. Breaking line of sight will make it impossible to laze, it won't "stick" for 20 seconds anymore. Smoking up and moving around will make it hard to laze.

does this mean we have to keep moving our GLTD until the bomb/missile hit the target ?

man that's Awesome...

[Sequadon]

No more "let's just laze this tank and go prone behind this hill for 10 sec LOL"? Sounds good. In that case (you have to keep the line of sight) tank crew could spot the lazer much easier. It will also effect the communication between SL and CAS because you'll likely laze the target only when CAS is diving. Unless you don't want to examine too much the rifling of a tank barrel...

[inb4banned]

Sneaky TOW/APC will still destroy your tank pre and post tank buff...tactics might have changed a little bit but these things never had a chance in a symmetric firefight.

I used to build sneaky TOWs all the time before TOWs got their vision blocked, then nerfed.

Vast majority of these spots no longer work at all after the nerf for several reasons: tanks will be too far for you to engage them, they'll pass into cover before the stupid fire-delay is up. If a faster vehicle decides to recon for your TOW they're much harder to kill because they'll probably be behind a hill or some shit when your TOW actually fires. And finally, as soon as a tank knows where your TOW is they can simply face front armour towards you and end you before you can even fire, or before you can do the pointless 10% damage.

[fecht_niko]

Tanks are too OP because ATGMs/TOWs/HATs got nerfed too much.
While for Tank vs Tank, or Tank vs IFV the changes made a better gameplay, they destroyed the INF vs Tank gameplay. TOWs are completely useless. If DEVs would want to fix that they could use a different rocket (and damage model) for TOWs. No matter if its realistic or not because it will lead to a more realistic gameplay.

CAS was pretty OP before the AA changes. I remember a few years ago CAS could hover above AAs, flare a bit and turkey shot everything. The only thing that could kill CAS was a HAT, APC, Tank and other CAS.

Even though I dont play CAS, I can understand pilots that they dont want to lose their asset after the first run because pub games doesnt offer that much teamwork.
Maybe make them a bit faster and reduce splash damage a bit.

[bahiakof]

What I realize most is that players expect the Asset (CAS, TANK, IFV/APC) to reappear and go to the battlefield without the objective already set. The most important thing is missing from Project Reality: battlefield recognition, leadership communication, teamwork, and common sense.

Unfortunately, the Phantom of Individualism in "Battlefield 2" has not yet come out of Project Reality.

Before requesting game mechanic changes, you need to change the way you play Project Reality.

That's all I have to say. Thank you...

[Fuller]

With the recent lack of teamwork and experienced players in PR the best solution is to completely remove CAS from all maps (it's only a waste of tickets)

@Bahiakof
The problem is that one 8-man squad filled with clan mates will pub stomp the enemy team quite easily.
I'd really like to fear enemy jets (while playing tank/ifv) but i really don't, especially with the lack of communication and experienced players. Strong CAS jets would contribute to teamplay where as of today e.g. 99% of the time AA vehicles stay in main base because there is no threat out there^^

[bahiakof]

@Bahiakof
The problem is that one 8-man squad filled with clan mates will pub stomp the enemy team quite easily.
I'd really like to fear enemy jets (while playing tank/ifv) but i really don't, especially with the lack of communication and experienced players. Strong CAS jets would contribute to teamplay where as of today e.g. 99% of the time AA vehicles stay in main base because there is no threat out there^^

CAS was very deadly on the battlefield when the UAV had infinite fuel and marking laser. Today with the "balance" of the UAV, the CAS relies heavily on infantry to be 100% successful. But with the lack of teamwork, CAS ends up being only a waste in 60% of the public games.

[fecht_niko]

With the recent lack of teamwork and experienced players in PR the best solution is to completely remove CAS from all maps (it's only a waste of tickets)

I doubt that. 9/10 times my tank died to a bomb.
Tank lased -> bomb dropped -> tank destroyed / 10% possibility AA is close, locked and hit the jet.

The problem is that most jet pilots want to go for every laze, no matter if the target is the next capable flag with shit ton of AAs around that.

Problematic are maps like Muttrah, Pavlovsk and so on because the actual playable map is to small for CAS.

[DogACTUAL]

So true about the teamwork aspect. Can't tell you how many instances my CAS squad shot down the entire enemy CAS only to be stuck waiting for lases that never come for the entire game until enemy CAS resurfaces.

Meanwhile the very same people and squadleaders you have been pleading to for 20min to give you lases complain in team chat and squadleader radio that they are getting steamrolled by tanks and APCs.

This might be too OP, but what about giving single seater jets proper targeting pods like the two seater fighter bombers and strike fighters have, so they don't have to rely on spotters as much?

[LimitJK]

If your tanks were not at A1 "hunting"... its teamwork.

thats the problem. i cant make "my" tank squad (or any other role of the team) play good. if they are shit the team looses an important asset to win the game BUT there should still be a way to cope with it by the rest of the team (eg. FOBs with stationary ATGM, playing more defensive until tanks respawn). whats the point as inf player to stay on a server that runs kashan when your contribution to the game is meaningless. either your tanks win and roll the enemy team or the other way around.

lazes will need line of sight to work, no more "stick", no more "projectiles". Instant, but not lag compensated. Breaking line of sight will make it impossible to laze, it won't "stick" for 20 seconds anymore. Smoking up and moving around will make it hard to laze.

so its actually a laze nerf. i mean the concept is cool but as of now with lazes being the only remaining (and unreliable) tank counter for infantry thats not a good developement. love refining there but i see it worsening an already present problem.


btw the discussion seems to be not making the distinction enough of issues with heli CAS and issues with fixed wing CAS. those are completely different.
decreasing the bleed from smoking planes would be an idea to have a better survivability, shouldnt be done for choppers.

[AlonTavor]

Laser being instant is a huge buff. You can lase a moving tank 1km away.

I've added a correction algorithm for it to make it even easier: It remembers the latest laser position that was on an active PlayerControlObject and keeps it on it for up to one second if current aiming position is too far from it. If a large vehicle is driving in a straight line, its easy to keep the laser on it pretty much 100% of the time when you're 600m away. Small fast vehicles are harder to laze.

"Stick Projectile" laser is a result of not being able to find a better way to make it work. It was always a wonky mechanic. Non line-of-sight lasers are bad.