AA missiles after 1.4.17

[DogACTUAL]

AA/Flares are completely broken, what's worse is that it is beginning to look like it's on purpose from how the DEVs responsible (and their pets) are alluding to here, calling to current system 'balanced' and refusing to acknowledge the problem.

[Piipu]

AA/Flares are completely broken, what's worse is that it is beginning to look like it's on purpose from how the DEVs responsible (and their pets) are alluding to here, calling to current system 'balanced' and refusing to acknowledge the problem.

I have to disagree. Just today we played a round of AAS where we were not constantly raped by enemy CAS. The only time we got kills were when enemy jets either charged in like retards or simply didn't know we were there. At 400 meters, there's no excuse for a double stinger missile not killing a Su-27, and you only have yourself to blame if you die to it. Or maybe you got too used to the old invulnerability button and no longer know how to look out for yourself..?

[viirusiiseli]

I have to disagree. Just today we played a round of AAS where we were not constantly raped by enemy CAS. The only time we got kills were when enemy jets either charged in like retards or simply didn't know we were there. At 400 meters, there's no excuse for a double stinger missile not killing a Su-27, and you only have yourself to blame if you die to it. Or maybe you got too used to the old invulnerability button and no longer know how to look out for yourself..?

Go fly CAS, attempt to kill stuff. Come back with new acquired insight. Giving one point of view and calling it balanced because the enemy CAS didn't kill anything and it being fun for you isn't what balance means. Two sides, remember?

I can take dying by AA all round, that's what most of flying CAS has ever been. Contrary to the popular opinion, CAS has always been the most vulnerable high risk high reward asset.

But you should also be able to kill a reasonable amount of stuff before dying if you fly with good tactics and info. That isn't happening anymore because AA is simply too good and CAS too bad.

If we want CAS to be less effective than inf, may as well remove it from the game entirely, better than having a 12 or 14 ticket asset flying around being wasted.

[CAS_ual_TY]

I have to disagree. Just today we played a round of AAS where we were not constantly raped by enemy CAS. The only time we got kills were when enemy jets either charged in like retards or simply didn't know we were there. At 400 meters, there's no excuse for a double stinger missile not killing a Su-27, and you only have yourself to blame if you die to it. Or maybe you got too used to the old invulnerability button and no longer know how to look out for yourself..?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROdzhumaAfg

This is literally proof that Flares/AAs are broken. Can you not try being a smartass without ANY knowledge/information on this matter (AA and flares in PR) at all?

Now about dogs point: I dont think the DEVs did that purposely. The mechanic we (re)discovered in that video kinda surprised me and I am sure the DEVs are surprised as well.

[Frontliner]

You bet. Alon and I have been discussing it earlier and he doesn't know what could possibly cause the Jet to explode. According to Alon, all properties the AA missiles have in the code as in Splash, Damage and Behaviour(prediction, which they don't have, etc.) point towards the Jet surviving.
FFG wanted to try and replicate earlier this evening, I don't know how far he's gotten though.

[CAS_ual_TY]

You bet. Alon and I have been discussing it earlier and he doesn't know what could possibly cause the Jet to explode. According to Alon, all properties the AA missiles have in the code as in Splash, Damage and Behaviour(prediction, which they don't have, etc.) point towards the Jet surviving.
FFG wanted to try and replicate earlier this evening, I don't know how far he's gotten though.

Easy to replicate. 100% of cases. Literally. These are all tries we ever did, in this video. We only failed 2 times doing this:
- "Stronger" angle. When the jet is not behind the flares anymore and the missile has to turn 30* or more (jet survives)
- The flares are too far away and disappear before the missile reaches them (missile then just goes straight for the jet -> jet dies)

[Piipu]

Go fly CAS, attempt to kill stuff. Come back with new acquired insight. Giving one point of view and calling it balanced because the enemy CAS didn't kill anything and it being fun for you isn't what balance means. Two sides, remember?

I can take dying by AA all round, that's what most of flying CAS has ever been. Contrary to the popular opinion, CAS has always been the most vulnerable high risk high reward asset.

But you should also be able to kill a reasonable amount of stuff before dying if you fly with good tactics and info. That isn't happening anymore because AA is simply too good and CAS too bad.

If we want CAS to be less effective than inf, may as well remove it from the game entirely, better than having a 12 or 14 ticket asset flying around being wasted.

I never said the CAS got 0 kills. They were reasonably effective, on both teams, and the only time they died was when they dived our by then well-established FOB with a stationary AA. There's no need to get upset over this and go claiming things that are clearly untrue.

A year ago, in a similar situation, they enemy CAS would have been able to bomb our fob to smithereens with zero concern for the AA placement, since he could have trusted his unfallible flare shield to protect him at even point-blank ranges. Now the ground-based AA actually can shoot down enemy aircraft, which is a vast improvement over previous balance.

[PatrickLA_CA]

A year ago, in a similar situation, they enemy CAS would have been able to bomb our fob to smithereens with zero concern for the AA placement, since he could have trusted his unfallible flare shield to protect him at even point-blank ranges.

This goes to prove viirus' point that if you haven't been on both sides of the story, you should, before you comment on it.
I'm not saying AA was balanced back then too, but it worked a lot better than now. Leading the shots usually went for a kill and when it didn't, most of the AAs just redirected and killed another unlucky guy anyway. Again, it wasn't balanced back then, but right now it is as broken as it will ever be.

[DogACTUAL]

Why didn't testers discover this in the first place? It literally took me and my friends only 10min of basic testing after the update to find out the flares are broken. The excuse that it would take months to learn about this is just bullshit, sry but it's the truth.

Then when you have solid proof and report it you just get ridiculed and talked down to and the problem gets explained away.
It seems the only way to draw the relevant attention to problems is if you have a connection to the DEVs (inner circle) or they like you. Otherwise your proof will just get disregarded (because muh circle jerk).

Imo that's not the way it should be. Obviously DEVs are very talented and do great work, the DEV in qestion even got rid off all client CTDs!!! and many other great things (PRSPY/TRACKER/many optimizations), so why not listen to all feedback and admit to a fuckup(it happens to everyone)?

[FFG]

Why didn't testers discover this in the first place? It literally took me and my friends only 10min of basic testing after the update to find out the flares are broken. The excuse that it would take months to learn about this is just bullshit, sry but it's the truth.

The bug shown by CAS has been in the game a while even before the AA update. Testers had discovered it. This specific situation never came up in testing because we don't expect people do not bomb the AAV they dive on. Im fairly sure looking at this that this specific bug doesn't effect Jets and Helis flying over as shown in the earlier videos in the thread.x

Then when you have solid proof and report it you just get ridiculed and talked down to and the problem gets explained away.
It seems the only way to draw the relevant attention to problems is if you have a connection to the DEVs (inner circle) or they like you. Otherwise your proof will just get disregarded (because muh circle jerk).

Forgive me if im wrong, I never saw you post this specific bug. What CAS has shown in the video is somehow the AA missile detonates on flares, and then tracks the jet afterwards and detonates again.

Imo that's not the way it should be. Obviously DEVs are very talented and do great work, the DEV in qestion even got rid off all client CTDs!!! and many other great things (PRSPY/TRACKER/many optimizations), so why not listen to all feedback and admit to a fuckup(it happens to everyone)?

Every single thing that gets changed in PR has this reaction, its caustic feedback. If every devs responded to every thread. nothing would get done. And it wasn't a "fuckup". A "fuckup" would be giving the BRDM thermals on accident or giving a hat kit infinite ammo. Alons gonna have a look at this in the next couple of days when he gets time i guess.

[Piipu]

Every single thing that gets changed in PR has this reaction, its caustic feedback. If every devs responded to every thread. nothing would get done. And it wasn't a "fuckup". A "fuckup" would be giving the BRDM thermals on accident or giving a hat kit infinite ammo. Alons gonna have a look at this in the next couple of days when he gets time i guess.

It's nothing unexpected, these noisy players' favourite toys were made slightly less effective after all. I'm not sure they even know how to play any other role, so it's only natural that they're a little upset.

[PBAsydney]

I'm not sure they even know how to play any other role, so it's only natural that they're a little upset.

It's the other way around buddy, the players who are complaining are all around players who are comfortable in any role, while those of you who claim that there is nothing wrong with AA should actually try flying fixed wing CAS to see for yourself how bad it is.

[CAS_ual_TY]

It's nothing unexpected, these noisy players' favourite toys were made slightly less effective after all. I'm not sure they even know how to play any other role, so it's only natural that they're a little upset.

Meme/signature material. Thats what this is.

The current AAs and Flares are the equivalent of every single weapon going through walls, one-shotting infantry anywhere, but with a really shitty hit detection. And players would obviously complain about that, too.

[HOLLYWOODY]

This thread is good example of development friction. I remember this past Summer, I had recently joined the forum when this issue became prevalent and literally got temporarily banned for attempting to post this video expressing my experience:

I was new and didn’t really add anything constructive at the time because I thought it would be relatively easy fix for those who actually knew what they were doing. That was back in July. Right now, I feel like most people agree the current situation can be improved. The community just wants to help. We feel like part of our game is broken. We will figure out how to fix it ourselves if we have to. I think we have high expectations if someone labels themselves as a developer. Most of us here are essentially “developers” for this game. Someone officially on the team should have already owned this shit and been done with it instead of wasting time banning me and letting everyone else here talk semantics for several months. Can we at least get a progress report of some sort? What are the “developers” considering at this point? Last I read, we’re supposed to give Alon a few days to see what he comes up with. Bluedrake is about to weaponize us. If we don’t hear from Alon soon we take matters into our own hands!

[DogACTUAL]

The bug shown by CAS has been in the game a while even before the AA update. Testers had discovered it. This specific situation never came up in testing because we don't expect people do not bomb the AAV they dive on. Im fairly sure looking at this that this specific bug doesn't effect Jets and Helis flying over as shown in the earlier videos in the thread.

Isn't testing supposed to mean testing every possible scenario? With multiple hidden AA in range you are often gonna dive on one AA and get shot at by another one that's very close to it. And this issue also affects A2A combat and leads to friendly jets getting tked by missiles that hit a hostile jet/flare.

Forgive me if im wrong, I never saw you post this specific bug. What CAS has shown in the video is somehow the AA missile detonates on flares, and then tracks the jet afterwards and detonates again.

I actually encountered the same bug when we tested it ourself and made the video but didn't recognize it as such. I assumed it was just another of those flare ignoring missiles that came from a different angle i couldn't see when it hit the jet. Looking back now i actually remember seeing missiles explode on flares in the distance and my jet then instantly being destroyed. I think there are even instances of this shown in the video we recorded.

Anyway what we showed is another bug that even occurs way more often and it was solid proof alright.

If every devs responded to every thread. nothing would get done. And it wasn't a "fuckup".

The problem is not that the DEVs didn't respond, they did. The problem was that our proof was just not taken seriously by them and dismissed with semantics and weak arguments. And imho it is a fuckup because flares do not offer any meaningful protection at all which defeats the purpose of them and should not be intended(?).

[viirusiiseli]

It's nothing unexpected, these noisy players' favourite toys were made slightly less effective after all. I'm not sure they even know how to play any other role, so it's only natural that they're a little upset.

Too much irony for one post. As some people pointed out already before, those who are good at CAS are usually the players who can perform in any role of the game. They are rightfully angry that one aspect of the game is at a terrible state.

Look at my sig, if I can do 60 kills as inf on OPFOR, you really think I can't play any other role in the game better than you?

Also, do you honestly think there's nothing wrong with AA after watching the videos by the LZ guys and casualty?

[FFG]

It's nothing unexpected, these noisy players' favourite toys were made slightly less effective after all. I'm not sure they even know how to play any other role, so it's only natural that they're a little upset.

I mean theres a little bit of bants in the thread. 90% of us know eachother. And I understand their frustration. Since 1.0 CAS has been tweaked and nerfed almost every patch. Choppers became slow as dicks, Flare amounts decreased, Cannon spread, Cannon count, Hellfire Turn radius, Hellfire Splash, etc

That is why they are upset.

[B2P1]

No... we can live with balancing assets, but this is about how broken AA and flares are. For both helicopters and jets, it's more obvious with jets but helicopters have the exact same problem.

[Piipu]

Look at my sig, if I can do 60 kills as inf on OPFOR, you really think I can't play any other role in the game better than you?

That's quite the lifetime achievement. Unlike you, I haven't been able to focus on PR full-time, as I've been too busy working after getting my master's in engineering.

[B2P1]

That's quite the lifetime achievement. Unlike you, I haven't been able to focus on PR full-time, as I've been too busy working after getting my master's in engineering.

That's literally the most retarded shit I've ever read lol.