Charlie's point

[anantdeathhawk]

This map is so much fun for both infantry and CAS.As sometimes it happens that the infantry is unable to cap a flag and CAS is down too,so the boats come in handy,but the effectiveness of the boats are reduced as the on several places past the "RUINS" flag it gets stuck and on several occasions Trans chopper arrived to give us a push.So i was wondering if that map could have a little more deeper river system.

[MIA89]

should throw the nva a cpl mig17

[fecht_niko]

This is one of the worst maps in PR.
You cant hear footsteps, you dont really see enemies nearby and the flag design is pretty poor.
Either change terrain, flags, .... OR just delete this map.

[inb4banned]

I agree that ambient sounds are too loud and grass too tall. It doesn't fit PR's gameplay when a couple of idiots can yolo into a coordinated squad, shoot, throws some grenades, run away and be effective. You can't counter what you can't see or hear. This is made worse by the new flag layout where you need to swim over to even get close. Some people camping in bushes on either side, few manning the quad with the rest of the team yoloing and you can't lose.

The map needs some work and I don't mean adding 200 tickets to US to balance out the stats.

[Mineral]

It wasn't made by us neither, so that's perhaps a obvious clue why it doesn't seem to feel like a PR map . It's from another mod ( I forgot which one) for probably the obvious reason that there weren't enough Vietnam maps (idk for sure, wasn't a Dev at the time) to fill the Vietnam release with. We really need people to make Vietnam maps. I find it pretty fun ( the minimod, not the map)

[AfterDune]

It's from EOD. I ported it to PR back then. Obviously it got overhauled a couple of times as well. To fit PR's style more, we could use a version at least twice its size.

[ALADE3N]

isn't the charlie's point map from eod? and what happened to the Dien Doung map?

[inb4banned]

That explains it, simply lowering the grass by a bit and lowering ambient sounds would change the map a lot.

[Murphy]

what happened to the Dien Doung map?

If I'm not mistaken it was taken out due to the caves not sitting properly on the terrain allowing players to glitch into the cave statics and shoot into the tunnels. It was abused quite a bit so I assumed it was being reworked but I don't know anymore.

[viirusiiseli]

If I'm not mistaken it was taken out due to the caves not sitting properly on the terrain allowing players to glitch into the cave statics and shoot into the tunnels. It was abused quite a bit so I assumed it was being reworked but I don't know anymore.

Balance reasons, what you mentioned and generally the gameplay not working in the map AFAIK led to it, but all those problems were quite simple. Could have been fixed by just asset layout edits, and placement of spawns/mains and flags.

Was a pretty good map overall I think and an incredibly unique and interesting one, despite being the exact same heightmap as Fools Road.

[VTRaptor]

IMO overgrowth change is meh, really liked previous one, felt like Vietnam, right now it's just grass ;/.

The map itself is unbalanced, but it's designed that way. Still, there are quite few options to favor US side a bit more, like removing quad guns or reducing CAS respawn timer or increasing boats survival rate or having two first flags instead of one or having a flamethrower tank spawning after 1st flag was capped or having area attack (mortar one) with low reload time (like WW2 omaha, where you had area attack every 5 minutes, so before landing it was good to drop it) and so on.

[Outlawz7]

Undergrowth*. And US already has area attack. And the boats survive one RPG hit, why would we make them more resistant? People already mostly use them the same way as RHIBs and they're even set up for it (despawn time, even lower respawn time).

I lowered grass to crouch height and lowered ambient sound volume for next release, I also removed the quad guns except the ones at Airstrip and NVA main.

Anyway I don't know how the flag layout could be better or how exactly it's bad, please elaborate. All I gathered from playing it since the 1.4.10.0 update is that US players go for setting up FOBs and flanking on far east side of map most of the time before and after my update. Only difference was that after update with first flag now bleeding US at least the round wasn't 1 hour of useless flanking agony.

[VTRaptor]

Ye undergrowth. My mistake.

Well. Currently boats start burning after that 1 RPG shot, so they allow US forces to save themselves by bailing out after hit and trying to make it swimming. These boats are bullet magnets for hordes of NVA soldiers that rush for the coast with tons of RPGs and AKs, so making them not burn after 1 RPG shot could drasticaly increase their value especially as fire support. With all the weapons it carries, it could fight off NVA soldiers camping the river and after getting hit - get back to repair bay so it could quickly return and harass again and again

Just spammed any idea that came to my mind.

[Fuller]

There are several problems with charlies point in terms of gameplay:

1.) Large US DoD, so technically it's not allowed to fire in/out of DoD on most servers

2.) Boats can be easily destroyed by NVA due to low view range and relatively good cover on the beach (F7 area)

3.) D11 flag placement is not very good.
The hills north of the flag are a lot higher than the island, that favors the attacking faction.
Defenders have to cross the river in order to reinforce the flag.

4.) Similar problem with the I11 flag.

General gameplay problems.
1.)It is hard to spot enemys with the boats so they are only good for supression.
2.) Reduce the number of AP mines for NVA. A full squad can lay down massive minefields because the
kit is not restricted.

[waldov]

I've played Charlies point more times then I can remember and its a map with potential but its so unbalanced that it sucks for both teams, usually turning into a kind of boring walk in the park for NVA and an infuriating waste of time for the US team. Some possible balances I've thought of include:

Two cappable flags in the beginning- This would make a massive difference and is probably the best recommendation I could think of, The NVA should have to defend both the rice paddies and the village at the same time giving the the US the advantage of choosing where to concentrate an attack versus the current almost game breaking situation where the US have to launch themselves hopelessly at a singular concentrated defensive position.

Reduced AA capability for NVA- The Quad AA of the NVA is too powerful, and seriously restricts the US air-power which is realistically there best means of advance and reinforcements. the NVA should be able to threaten American air-support but not dominate it, remember the NVA can build atleast 2 Dshk AA positions, have RPG's and a Dshk armed jeep (though they could probably do with 2 if they lose there quads).

Stronger Area attack/CAS for USMC- The strong static defenses the NVA often rely upon to dominate this map should be punished by stronger US fire-support Heavier area attacks or maybe two CAS huey's (1 un-respawnable), just something decisive to break through the strong defenses the NVA throw up, boats rarely make it past the bridge because of the density of defenses the NVA can easily set up around that area, this is something the US should have a realistic counter to.

Basically being worried of making the US overpowered shouldn't be too much of a serious concern, the game is so balanced in the NVA's favor at the moment its almost unplayable. Assets and flag layouts aside, the terrain like the long grass and rolling hills surrounding open paddies and rivers give the defending NVA serious advantage anyway. Anything to lend an advantage to the US team isn't likely to do any harm its a cool map it just sucks unbalanced it is.

[Outlawz7]

Two cappable flags in the beginning- This would make a massive difference and is probably the best recommendation I could think of, The NVA should have to defend both the rice paddies and the village at the same time giving the the US the advantage of choosing where to concentrate an attack versus the current almost game breaking situation where the US have to launch themselves hopelessly at a singular concentrated defensive position.

Until NVA decides to leave one open and defend the other one, leading to same situation as now except US gets a flag at least which they also have to defend now. And once US hold both, they have to defend both and attack a third, reversing the situation and now giving NVA the same choice. Nah. The only thing I've seen work is making all flags neutral like I did on Barracuda (and it worked since time immemorial on Jabal), but that just means assault maps don't really work in PR anymore?

I did some of the things suggested already though.

[waldov]

Until NVA decides to leave one open and defend the other one, leading to same situation as now except US gets a flag at least which they also have to defend now. And once US hold both, they have to defend both and attack a third, reversing the situation and now giving NVA the same choice. Nah. The only thing I've seen work is making all flags neutral like I did on Barracuda (and it worked since time immemorial on Jabal), but that just means assault maps don't really work in PR anymore?

I did some of the things suggested already though.

Thats a good point, another option to remedy that could be to make the first two flags non-recappable once they're fully seized. so there's a long enough cap time to allow a swift NVA counter-attack but once seized the NVA have to consolidate on the other flag or in the event of both flags being capped the NVA are pushed to the under-utilized bottom two-thirds of the map. But regardless of map layout I really think the ZPU should be removed altogether (except maybe right over NVA main) and replaced with an extra FAV or something, its just far too dominating of the center of the map.

[Jack_Howitzer]

It's already pretty balanced map, the problem is just the incompetence of PR playerbase. If US fails to make 1 or 2 decent FOBs on high ground at the game start, then they are in trouble. All USA really needs to do (which I do every time I play that map on USA) is go to either western edge of map, or eastern hills of the map, and make FOB during the first 5 minutes. What this requires is 1 SL with brains and 1-2 capable trans pilots, which almost never happens. Squads are way too slow to build a FOB, it takes less than 5 mins to get FOB up if done right. And if they do build FOB, they build it on low ground, in the beach NE or NW side of map which makes the FOB a killzone for NVA.

Once USA gets 1-2 good FOBs up on high ground, things get pretty even as US weapons are superior so attacking defending NVA is not a problem. Just a shame that many maps don't work very well as people don't get the importance of FOBs in PR, even after it's been preached for 10 years.

[Frontliner]

I feel like you're completely ignoring the NVA potentially also having capable players who know that you need to prevent FOBs West and East.

Maps like Charlie's Point are imbalanced because once a decent team shows up on side of the NVA it doesn't matter who's playing on US. The NVA simply does one thing - hunting FOBs - and wins the game because of it almost alone on virtue of doing so. Compare that to a map like Marlin where there isn't only the FOB game, but also APCs and Tanks to worry about. It's also worthy to note that infantry has the ability to move around rather freely, an option you do not have on CP with so much being water. The results of decent teams of equal strength going up against each other on Marlin would be a split 50:50, on CP it's like 95:5, perhaps even worse.

[Jack_Howitzer]

I feel like you're completely ignoring the NVA potentially also having capable players who know that you need to prevent FOBs West and East.

Maps like Charlie's Point are imbalanced because once a decent team shows up on side of the NVA it doesn't matter who's playing on US. The NVA simply does one thing - hunting FOBs - and wins the game because of it almost alone on virtue of doing so. Compare that to a map like Marlin where there isn't only the FOB game, but also APCs and Tanks to worry about. It's also worthy to note that infantry has the ability to move around rather freely, an option you do not have on CP with so much being water. The results of decent teams of equal strength going up against each other on Marlin would be a split 50:50, on CP it's like 95:5, perhaps even worse.

It takes NVA a lot longer to reach the high ground than it takes for US to reach it by helicopters. The win/lose balance comparison about Marlin and Charlie's point is probably true, but that's mostly because of the lack of competence when it comes to usage of trans helis. People can use supply trucks somewhat effectively, but can't use trans choppers while they're not that complicated to use. This leads to steamrolls of attacking team in many amphibious assault maps.

There is no way NVA are able to reach the eastern high ground before US does, if US actually wants to get there ASAP. Once USA gets there, they can just kill everything from there with M60s and there very little NVA can do about it. Plus, USA gets gun boats and CAS.