FAMAS French Rifle (PR versus Real Life)

[Valmont]

Hello dear PR community.

Having played PR for about 5 years now I am quite familiar with most weapons by now and I love how most rifles, specially the German ones, have been implemented and balanced in PR.

But there is one Rifle in particular that always felt weird to me and that is the FRENCH forces' FAMAS rifles.

It is the only rifle in the game that I simply cannot fire in full auto or even in 3 shots burst mode because it is ridiculously uncontrollable at any distance (for me).

But recently I have been watching lots of videos and reading lots of wiki entries about many of the weapons we can find in our beloved PR and I found among other FAMAS videos this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2SJMqbFzPs

And if you check it, or any other FAMAS video really, you will see that the riffle was specifically made for FULL AUTO FIRE up to the point that it is quite difficult for the operator to set it to single fire (watch the full video).

Not only that but the gun when fired in full auto even while standing has virtually no recoil at all.

The question here is... is it implemented somewhat different from reality in PR for balance reasons?

Or is it that the devs truly believe that the gun should not be meant to be fired in full auto?

I will leave that up for debate while also using this as an excuse to throw a huge appreciation thread for the amazing devs that still work on PR!

[Frontliner]

Due to the limitations within the BF2 engine, it has always been hard to find ways to mimic reality accurately whilst trying to promote teamplay. You're going to find a lot of people say "Oh well, I've fired 5.56mm no problem on full auto, why would a soldier struggle?" and the answer is that it's a piece of cake to reduce recoil values to practically nothing but as you can imagine, this impacts gameplay massively and would make it too easy to hit in full auto as we do not have sway and other realistic features in order to decrease practical accuracy, all we have to work with is recoil and deviation, and the recoil and deviation system(or rather the values our game has)was made by a guy who's never once fired a firearm.

Since most weapons use set deviation templates to streamline weapons of similar build, the only weapons that aren't balanced properly are the
A) Polish ones due somebody still not updating their scoped recoil reduction to 0.6(=>human error) as well as
B) those that fire at 900 RPM due to their recoil animation being cut short by their ROF(=>game engine)

Deployed LMGs and MGs are also far too potent to be considered fair but as that's the case for all factions(exception being the Iraqi Ins as they have to find MG pick-up kits) it's strictly speaking a matter of being unbalanced but rather these weapons being unfair/cheap compared to all other weapon systems.


Can it be changed? Well, yes, I actually made an attempt to completely overhaul the current values, but the problem is that it's very, VERY late into PR's life span, and thus people are harder to convince that your proposed change is an upgrade to the current values in almost every respect.

[BlackGus]

The problem with the rifle is just the magazine with 25 rounds, recoil is ok, spray is ok,

PD: Is hard to make Famas G2? (or just increase to 30 rounds) Please devs add the rifle for SL, grenadier, breacher and medic kits

[qs-racer]

G2 is not in use in the army (only naval forces have it). In PR, the french forces won't be concern by it.

Most of feedback from professionnal military is that the riffle is ligth and easy to manoever, low recoil on burst or auto. In fact only the first bullet have a recoil.

Test with canadian army
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkD48nCubfg

Test with US army :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVC6_9pc0_Q

Not that bad for soliders that are not trained with this weapon.


(By the way you video is with low load ammo, war ammo give more recoil)

[Rabbit]

as you can imagine, this impacts gameplay massively and would make it too easy to hit in full auto as we do not have sway and other realistic features in order to decrease practical accuracy, all we have to work with is recoil and deviation, and the recoil and deviation system

Who needs to imagine when PR accidentally released an updated with laser weapons.

[Valmont]

Due to the limitations within the BF2 engine, it has always been hard to find ways to mimic reality accurately whilst trying to promote teamplay.

Can it be changed? Well, yes, I actually made an attempt to completely overhaul the current values, but the problem is that it's very, VERY late into PR's life span, and thus people are harder to convince that your proposed change is an upgrade to the current values in almost every respect.

Thank you Frontliner for clearing that up.

I just want to say that I did not mean to suggest a change here, just a friendly debate.

I understand that people are used to some values and I would be fuc**** pissed if you changed the G36K even in the slightest. I mean if you even look at my G36K I will hunt that dev down!
(Just kidding!).

It just seemed a little unfair to the FAMAS, that other rifles with more recoil/more powerful ammunition behave better.

And I don't think many will complain if you reduced recoil and increased deviation and perhaps decreased damage in favor of both balance and also life like behavior.

Again... my opinion. And the FAMAS is the only rifle I would personally tweak if it was up to me. All the others DO behave on par with what you see on videos or people with experience say about them.

[Frontliner]

It just seemed a little unfair to the FAMAS, that other rifles with more recoil/more powerful ammunition behave better.

Whatever you feel is not really supported by the values in the tweaker file which governs recoil though. The Famas has virtually the same recoil as the L85 or QBZ so it's kind of weird to hear that one weapon behaves awkward yet the other two are fine.

[qs-racer]

Whatever you feel is not really supported by the values in the tweaker file which governs recoil though. The Famas has virtually the same recoil as the L85 or QBZ so it's kind of weird to hear that one weapon behaves awkward yet the other two are fine.

Rate of fire, scope feeling

These weapons are not nice on full auto with scope.
The short version of QBZ, without scope give very good feeling.

[Rabbit]

Biggest problem with recoil is no use of "back down on recoil" setting.

[Valmont]

Whatever you feel is not really supported by the values in the tweaker file which governs recoil though. The Famas has virtually the same recoil as the L85 or QBZ so it's kind of weird to hear that one weapon behaves awkward yet the other two are fine.

Rate of fire, scope feeling

These weapons are not nice on full auto with scope.
The short version of QBZ, without scope give very good feeling.

The difference does lie in the RATE OF FIRE.

You see:

QBZ: 650 RPM
L85: 610-775 RPM
FAMAS F1: 900-1.000 RPM
(Source: Wikipedia)

So if you leave the same recoil values with a higher RPM my guess is that handling would feel a lot worst for the FAMAS than the slower firing competition.

Of course I don't know if the RPM values of the 3 weapons match real life in PR but if that is the case then that could be the culprit of the issue I am describing.

PS: Just tested the 3 weapons in question in FULL AUTO and 3 rounds bursts and the L85 feels the best while handling while QBZ is close second and the FAMAS feels the most "uncontrollable" for me at least.

[Stolt_Yugoslav]

Hi!

Many of us were early proponents of more realistic behaviour rather than forced realistic gameplay. This included an attempt by a guy called F117 (I think, long time ago) to remake the whole mod, in particular recoil/deviation and missile tracking. Other aspects that were contended if I remember correctly are things like the attempts to remove any self defense from the pilot to limit team killing for assets (later reverted), the removal of (many) civilian cars and the ability for people to hijack each others light vehicles, the expansion of "death zones" to protect spawns (making the fixed assets like AAA and AT nearly useless), stuff like this.


Sadly we were the minority and didn't have the platform.

Today what you have is a game with highly fidgety and artificial mechanics that forces a realistic approach to fighting. Many of us were banned for long periods of time and these type of discussions would be closed by moderators.

Sadly part of the reason why these two sides never could come to an agreement in the most important aspects is not so much the fault of either side but to the limitations of the engine and what could be simulated, including difficulties to simulate increased heartbeat situations.

[Valmont]

Hi!
Sadly part of the reason why these two sides never could come to an agreement in the most important aspects is not so much the fault of either side but to the limitations of the engine and what could be simulated, including difficulties to simulate increased heartbeat situations.

I do believe the devs explained that even if they wanted a better recoil/deviation system the majority of the player base, who are all veterans and super used to the standard values, would simply reject. That has already happened in some of the previous patches.

I also agree that PR in its current lifespan is not up to a full revamp of any of its systems but small tweaks to some weapons here and there is on par to what each progressive patch brings anyway.

There will always be somethings to improve and we can all help doing it one weapon at a time.

This time we found out that the FAMAS' higher RPM could be the reason why it feels worst when shooting in FULL AUTO versus other Bullpups of the same caliber. (RPM values to be confirmed by the devs).

General consensus among the people who showed interest in the subject suggests that many do believe the FAMAS handling should be slightly better. (Not laser accurate of course).

[Stolt_Yugoslav]

All weapons handling should be considerably better with the Famas even more so. But the point is that weapons were never designed around how they handle in cool situations in real life but what gameplay they want to force the playerbase to. And thus any realism aspects of actual gun recoil and control are irrelevant to them. Though for flavour I guess they could (and do) keep them somewhat different so Famas could perhaps be a bit better cause of that.

[Frontliner]

And thus any realism aspects of actual gun recoil and control are irrelevant to them. Though for flavour I guess they could (and do) keep them somewhat different so Famas could perhaps be a bit better cause of that.

Again, there is not much we can do. We could introduce sway afaik, but it's only a placebo(meaning the true point of aim will always be centered somewhere on your screen) and the animation cannot be linked to the deviation itself.

Last I checked I've yet to see a game to fully mimic what it would actually be like to have a weapon in your hand, you think ArmA or Squad are anything like the real deal? So the consideration of the team has always been what we would the game itself to be like - in fact, that's the only consideration that should matter, and as such the values are the way they are.

With that said, I personally am of the opinion that we could do an even better approximation of how the weapons should behave given what IRL data is there to support my case but at the end of the day my opinion is just one of many; even if I can present my thoughts and approaches for a redraft better than most.

[Valmont]

With that said, I personally am of the opinion that we could do an even better approximation of how the weapons should behave given what IRL data is there to support my case but at the end of the day my opinion is just one of many; even if I can present my thoughts and approaches for a redraft better than most.

Totally agree with you Frontliner.

By the way, when you have the time can you please check the Rate of Fire (RPM) of the FAMAS in the tweak files for us? (Even better if you could also give us the RPMs of the competing Bullpups we've been talking about).

[Frontliner]

Generally speaking most automatic weapons fire at 600 or 900 RPM depending on if the IRL rate is above or below 750 RPM. The Famas does fire at 900 RPM, the other two at 600 RPM.

[Valmont]

Generally speaking most automatic weapons fire at 600 or 900 RPM depending on if the IRL rate is above or below 750 RPM. The Famas does fire at 900 RPM, the other two at 600 RPM.

Thank you Frontliner.

That would explain why even with the same recoil values as the other 600 RPM bullpups, the 900 RPM FAMAS feels more "uncontrollable" doesn't it?

Matematically, if:
Recoil over time = RPM * Recoil value

Then the FAMAS has almost 2X (closer to 1.7X actually) the amount of recoil over time the other bullpups have

If so, I guess that reducing the Rate of Fire of the FAMAS or even better, reducing its recoil values while maintaining the realistic 900 RPM value, would make the FAMAS finally an even competitor in the FULL AUTO department.

Feels so good when people work together for the betterment of our beloved PR, even if it is only one weapon at the time.

Thanks to all the contributors, this thread was totally worth it =)

Now it is up to the devs if and how they decide to approach the FAMAS in future patches. I wish them godspeed!

PS: France could be back into the action soon baby!

(I still prefer Germany thou)

[Chernobog95]

If it doesn't act as FAMAS then it isn't FAMAS, it is simple as that and behavior that deviates greatly and or complete opposite means its misleading to refer to this rifle as FAMAS if it doesn't act as FAMAS and for people to expect FAMAS. Specially those French players that had experience with it.

Also no recoil does not equate greater accuracy, specifically targeted accuracy like aiming for the head. From reading what is available online and footage too, FAMAS should be treated as assault rifle that is for suppression and fire in general direction.

Is there in game differences between weapons in terms of when they start firing ie firing delay when pressing the fire button? If so then we can imitate the pull of each gun.

[Valmont]

If it doesn't act as FAMAS then it isn't FAMAS, it is simple as that and behavior that deviates greatly and or complete opposite means its misleading to refer to this rifle as FAMAS if it doesn't act as FAMAS and for people to expect FAMAS. Specially those French players that had experience with it.

Well Cherno, while I do agree that weapons can still be tweaked to be better portrayed in PR you also have to understand that making weapons act exactly like their real counterparts in video games is quite hard.

I won't say it is impossible because nothing is impossible but the technology back in 2005 was certainly not equipped to do so and the devs have done their best, some times even using work arounds and deviating from reality a bit to create a real life like sense of danger and the importance of teamwork.

Now the FAMAS in PR does look amazingly close to the real life FAMAS and as it turns out the behavior problem could be due to a standardization of calibers and type of rifles on which category the FAMAS fell while the PR team was deciding how each weapon would/should behave. (it seems like the RPM of the rifle was not being considered when they gave the FAMAS its bullpup recoil values. That could be due to an honest mistake or a balancing act, perhaps the french had other asset going that was too good?).

Of course it is not perfect currently but the devs have shown here their transparency and willingness to receive honest well intended feedback that is backed by solid evidence and a good attitude.

Remember that PR is ultimately a game and the devs are doing this out of passion and their free time so don't take it too seriously.

You can do what I did, every time I would play in the french forces I would go AR and avoid the FAMAS as much as possible or hey, just play another faction.

[X-Alt]

Copypaste the AR-15 variants recoil pattern onto to all the other 900rpm guns and problem solved