Muttrah Alternative Layout

[Nightingale]

IMO, STD and ALT layers aren't really that different from each other. Also, I think that the South City is the most interesting area on this map, but we never fight there unless MEC is playing very poorly. I think there can also be some interesting mountain action if both teams have access to helicopters. If the TOWs can have enough down-angle to fire on buildings, that could be fun.



I dunno, just an idea. I didn't really think too hard about which factions to use or which heavy assets I put in this picture. Interested to hear what ideas others may have.

[Grump/Gump.45]

IMO, STD and ALT layers aren't really that different from each other. Also, I think that the South City is the most interesting area on this map, but we never fight there unless MEC is playing very poorly.

How about on maps like Muttrah or Vadso we remove flag bleed, any map with fun last flags right outside the enemy main like Radar, Dam or the Fortress. Even on Bamyan AAS ALT layer with USMC ironsights, why have their last flag be the main airbase if flag bleed is on the flags right before that? It doesnt give the Taliban time to attack the airfield, which would be epic.

Flag bleeds removes the main event flags from even getting the time or chance to be in play, its like a reward to cap an elaborate last fun flag for the winning team. You have been ripping the rug right out from under players feet with flag bleeds, dis-respecting map makers who wanted players to fight at these flags. We could actually retain more players on Project Reality by removing flag bleed, it would increase eventfulness fun, both daily keeping them playing and long term keeping them coming back.

Last flag closer to enemy main means getting faster kills, they get up faster FOBs. With very fun last flags like Dam on Vadso with elevator, the radar underground facility on Vadso, the Fort on Muttrah we NEVER get the chance to fully play out these flags because flag bleed. For some reason on Muttrah the south city is also a bleed flag further reducing chances we actually get to fight over the fort.

By the time we make it to capture these last flags the enemy team doesnt have that many tickets to make it last long. We dont have time to show everyone the elevator on Dam or explore other things. Its just like Breacher shotgun instant arresting people, takes so much fun potential from the game it should have never been a thing. Whether you want crowd of protestors or a fun flag to fight at its usually ONE function put into the game that ruins it.

We cant even use those flags cause it ends so fast, whether MEC or the USMC, defending or attacking fort is just as much fun. But flag bleeding prevents this fun and its depressing to know that "these enemies better hurry up and attack before... Oh look Round is Ending"...

Highly dis-respectful of the person who made the maps with these elaborate very fun flags, like why have a Dam flag on Vadso with an elevator if the game will end before any fighting due to ticket bleeding anyways? The last flag of the enemies is very close to their main. We DONT NEED flag bleeds when 50 enemy player deaths can equal 100 tickets without any revives or vehicles to add to that.

[Nate.]

I like the idea of involving south city more, but your layout has issues with main bases - Canadian main has only one exit that can be easily locked down. It will boil down to both factions rushing the fortress.

Initial MTLB spawn means MEC can reach canadian main base chokepoints very fast.

[Coalz101]

I like the idea of involving south city more, but your layout has issues with main bases - Canadian main has only one exit that can be easily locked down. It will boil down to both factions rushing the fortress.

Initial MTLB spawn means MEC can reach canadian main base chokepoints very fast.

Muttrah Alt only rules will counter that, MEC shouldn't be on fortress.

But in all seriousness, maybe he can push the dod inland some more, it will be desperately needed since Canada has no amphibious vehicles besides coyote maybe idk. Also the entire docks should be dod and no playzone, if he leaves that space on harbour open, people can just place a tow looking into Canada spawn. Also he can push back the spawn for MEC a bit allowing a flag to be in play closer to their main, so don't get a huge advantage by having 2/3 flags off the bat while canada only has the fortress.

[Rhino]

Highly dis-respectful of the person who made the maps with these elaborate very fun flags, like why have a Dam flag on Vadso with an elevator if the game will end before any fighting due to ticket bleeding anyways? The last flag of the enemies is very close to their main. We DONT NEED flag bleeds when 50 enemy player deaths can equal 100 tickets without any revives or vehicles to add to that.

Without ticket bleed, and especially with non-cappable mains, flags serve no purpose and then you might as well be playing Team Death Match and any sensible player will be just camping high kill zones, hoping someone wanders into them rather than going for flags which without ticket bleed, are worthless.

[Outlawz7]

Highly dis-respectful of the person who made the maps with these elaborate very fun flags, like why have a Dam flag on Vadso with an elevator if the game will end before any fighting due to ticket bleeding anyways? The last flag of the enemies is very close to their main. We DONT NEED flag bleeds when 50 enemy player deaths can equal 100 tickets without any revives or vehicles to add to that.

That very same person who made the map that's supposedly being disrespected here placed it there, the dam was a last flag since map's inception.

And yes we do need bleed flags otherwise what's the point of capturing the entire map.

[BubblyNinja]

2x BMP-2 and 1x BRDM vs 3x LAV-25s (Coyote?) is pretty unbalanced e.g. Yamalia moment. Also, CAS griffon w/miniguns on a map with a lot of cover. MEC with 2 logis and 2 COWs being able to drop fobs like no one's business with CAN having 2 Griffons and 2 logis with the latter having to push through a chokepoint. Yikes.

[WingWalker]

Probably one of my all time favorite maps in PR.

I remember talking about opening the mountains in the past, but they were not really designed to allow moving though? Rhino?

I would personally love to see tweaks to a map like Muttrah that everyone likes to play, where everyone is used to all the sweet spots and tricks.

Utilizing more areas of the map would be nice, moving the flags to change the fighting environments.

For instance I always liked the Docks area but most action just takes place around the warehouses.

After playing a few days ago, I feel like the fortress should be a hardcore last ditch fight, but winnable by MEC too. Feel like its too easy to pin them into the fortress, or to prevent them from spawning at all.

Totally cutting down the armored vehicles on the map would change things a lot too.

[Grump/Gump.45]

Without ticket bleed, and especially with non-cappable mains, flags serve no purpose and then you might as well be playing Team Death Match and any sensible player will be just camping high kill zones, hoping someone wanders into them rather than going for flags which without ticket bleed, are worthless.

Enemy ALWAYS goes for their last flag that is right outside their main, thats where enemy will be at the last flag. They know where to find enemy at the last flag. Insurgency doesnt have ticket bleed, we have to kill all the BLUFOR inf and assets there without help of ticket bleed. Insurgents are expected to do this with severe equipment handicaps while defending 2 caches which is like 2 flags. How can you say the same about AAS not wiping them all out with conventional weapons over one last flag? Flags are the location catalyst bringing both sides together. There is no caches that can be destroyed shifting battle around the map in AAS, the flags STAY right where they are and battle happens at the flags. I don't understand what you mean by "camping killzones" elsewhere.

Once you capture the flag you still have to defend, it doesn't just lose its worth, especially if its a symbolic fun to fight location like airbase, fortress, radar, mosque or dam. On Kafr Halab Russians dont bleed if they dont capture the first mosque flag ever, we need to wipe them all out manually there too as rebels without them bleeding tickets to win. We like to kill them all without help of ticket bleed. Can we try this on HOG on some maps?

Flag bleed has people RUSHING to get to the fun because time is running out and tickets bleed out before you get there to get killed removing tickets by death. Flag bleed ruins the fun, the flag is still there and every last flag is recapturable. Thats where the fighting goes when you cant capture main, it stays at the last flag. We dont need flag bleed to get us moving or make a flag worth it, the enemy there gives it worth along with what the location is called. It is called Fortresses, dam with elevator, radar, cool places like this..

People are there, enemy has a last flag to go to, if you build it they will come. Flag still has worth because enemy is coming for it. Set timer for ticket bleed to start after last flag capture, give us 10-15 minutes time to bleed our players onto the flag before you bleed the flag. By the time we get to last flag one or both teams have less than 200 tickets anyways, its just a bit bigger or smaller than skirmish. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JfAo9vxJWU

That very same person who made the map that's supposedly being disrespected here placed it there, the dam was a last flag since map's inception.

And yes we do need bleed flags otherwise what's the point of capturing the entire map.

50 player deaths without vehicles is 100 tickets. Add vehicles and revives to that for more, wounded, revived, wounded 2 minutes later then giving up is 3 tickets. I know you guys know this, just stating for who else reads. All they need is to set up a FOB, get in transport and deploy for final attack outside their main deployment. Muttrah doesnt even need that, their spawn is right there. This should be a game of attrition, if you want flag bleed it should be the player bleeding on the flag. Not the flag bleeding.

Futile feeling charges where trying to survive can give the unbalanced team some more practice using tactics and kit tools like smoke. Rate their attempts, admin can better visually assess skills for balance. Especially with APC and infantry coming out of main or super FOB outside main to their last flag, POSSIBLY showing the potential of teamwork to these poor unbalanced fellers. Making them more skilled in the future.

Whoever was lacking on the teamwork can redeem themselves with a quick observational lesson on helping their team rushing out of one place. If enemy who captured all flags is low on tickets, they can still lose from deaths. This momentum of teamwork coming out of main can turn the game around, pushing with momentum. FAIR.

Much more to gain than there is to lose.

What is the point of having these last flags outside the enemy main if they aren't allowed time due to flag bleed to bum rush it? Its very fun having one neutral flag in middle of map all 50 are fighting for, it could happen also at last flags. But due to ticket bleed we dont have time for the last ones which are forts, airbases, dam facilities with elevators, radar tunnels. NVA tunnels? That is the point of capturing the entire map. To have the fun reward of wiping them out there in that particular spot.

Teams with 200 tickets can turn it around due to momentum of teamwork coming out of main. By the time we get to last flag both sides have 70-200 left if even that. For flags it should be only the 30 ticket penalty, no bleed or many options around this. Sometimes flag bleeds dont start for 15 minutes after certain flags on certain maps. That is if you are worried about enemy giving up on pushing.

At least certain maps with significant flags like Muttrah Fort, Vadso Radar or Dam, Bamyan ALT USMC main airbase with the A10. Others that slip my mind too, maybe do ALL of them. The rare main base on Bamyan that actually has an AAS marker, has 2 bleed rate increasing "Checkpoint" VCP flags right before it. Removing potential use for that fun flag when USMC spawns right outside to the west. Same with south city on Muttrah causing bleed before fort. Makes no sense, I ask everyone and they want change..

These examples of singular functions have similar detrimental aspects to game play removing further potential teamwork teaching and comedic moments. Flag bleeding, shotgun instant arrest (instead of stamina removal) on my civilian INS rock thrower protest crowds. It ruins the capabilities of fun.

Whether it be human waves out of enemy main to finish the game... or INS crowd control tactics to arrest people with TANKS/APC pulling security not letting enemy INS fighters peek the BLUFOR. The players want it, it will bring and keep more. We cant keep human shield civilians in front of the roadblocks preventing tank from blowing it if a breacher with a shotgun comes with instant arrest along with the tank. That means the civilians have to scatter and plan cant be used because of ONE GAME FUNCTION, the instant shotgun arrest. If the tank can't blow the roadblocks fighters took time to build because of stubborn protected civilians, thats funny. But we cant do that. People HATE THINGS RUINING THE FUN, LIKE FLAG BLEED.


If its people sitting around not finishing the game, I will personally yeet my tactical rear end at the enemy again and again taking as many of my friendlies down on the sinking ship with me. Its the spirit of certain SLs that motivate others, "lets go, we got something better to do than sit around".

HOG still the test server right? They allowed us recently to hit enemy main bases, most have an Iron Dome like Israel so its all good. Maybe test some other crazy things to see how gameplay changes.

[InfantryGamer42]

Enemy ALWAYS goes for their last flag that is right outside their main, thats where enemy will be at the last flag. They know where to find enemy at the last flag. Insurgency doesnt have ticket bleed, we have to kill all the BLUFOR inf and assets there without help of ticket bleed. Insurgents are expected to do this with severe equipment handicaps while defending 2 caches which is like 2 flags. How can you say the same about AAS not wiping them all out with conventional weapons over one last flag? Flags are the location catalyst bringing both sides together. There is no caches that can be destroyed shifting battle around the map in AAS, the flags STAY right where they are and battle happens at the flags. I don't understand what you mean by "camping killzones" elsewhere.

New HOG DoD rule and widespread main camping disproves you here. Whiteout ticket bleed, you really do not have any reason to go for flags as they will most likely lose you to much tickets whiteout any benefit while in same time you can do more damage by camping enemy main.

[Rhino]

Probably one of my all time favorite maps in PR.

I remember talking about opening the mountains in the past, but they were not really designed to allow moving though? Rhino?

I would personally love to see tweaks to a map like Muttrah that everyone likes to play, where everyone is used to all the sweet spots and tricks.

Utilizing more areas of the map would be nice, moving the flags to change the fighting environments.

For instance I always liked the Docks area but most action just takes place around the warehouses.

After playing a few days ago, I feel like the fortress should be a hardcore last ditch fight, but winnable by MEC too. Feel like its too easy to pin them into the fortress, or to prevent them from spawning at all.

Totally cutting down the armored vehicles on the map would change things a lot too.

Thanks

I technically never finished Muttrah, there was much I had planned to do and would have liked to do, especially as PR's gameplay has evolved a lot from when it was made (2008 ) and for the map to incorporate those changes better. Like for example, I had hoped to develop the docks up round to the north where the real Muttrah docks has had a big extension made up there just as I was finishing the map and this area would become the initial staging and landing area for the USMC where the vehicle depo etc could be better located and protected, also opening up the rest of the docks for more fighting. Although now it looks like that port has been totally decommissioned other than for cruise ships.

Butt tbh, I don't see me ever finishing the map with everything I hoped to do as I'm simply too busy with r/l stuff and the little bit of time I do have is going towards finishing my Frigate etc.

People HATE THINGS RUINING THE FUN, LIKE FLAG BLEED.

I'm sorry Grump I really don't have the time or energy to read all that, it would be nice if you condensed your posts to only the key facts and info especially when you're trying to convince someone of something.

But from what I can see from doing a quick skim read is your problem isn't really with flag bleed or anything like that, it is actually more with the match length and you would like the match to run on for longer. I partly agree with you there I would like to see longer matches but most players do not. Server admins in fact have a setting to increase the ticket ratio for their maps so they can run for longer, but they do not. I suggest you talk with your server admins about adjusting the ticket ratio if you want longer games, or setting up a server yourself with those settings. But what we have found in the past is the majority of players don't want to play a single map for that amount of time.

[Grump/Gump.45]

New HOG DoD rule and widespread main camping disproves you here. Whiteout ticket bleed, you really do not have any reason to go for flags as they will most likely lose you to much tickets whiteout any benefit while in same time you can do more damage by camping enemy main.

During Insurgency as insurgents we dont have things like ticket bleed to help us. We mop their tickets up manually by killing infantry and assets. Other AAS maps no ticket bleed either like if Russians dont get Mosque on Kafr Halab AAS. We kill them all in attrition.

Many benefits as I said for removing flag bleed, enemy main is right there and has assets ready to push out. But it takes strategy, if you have anti-air vehicle dont leave that behind if taking out tanks with enemy CAS up. Things like that. Max out support and output. There is only 100-200 tickets left per side or even less by the time it gets to the last flag..

I made alot of other points that cross over and reinforce one another for a bigger picture. I read all the long ones other people post.. News articles too, long forums, lots of long things. I for one like to listen to other peoples thoughts and broaden the options. Skimming is a good skill, gets all the good points. But reading is better once you find the good stuff.

We have MEC main right outside the fort on Muttrah with a bleed flag before it south city. Same with Bamyan AAS ALT with the USMC airfield having 2 checkpoint bleed flags right before it. Rendering epic place to fight useless cause never enough tickets left at the end anyways.. Its like skirmish with one or both sides have 200 tickets or less by that point, let it play out.

[Cpt.Future]

Like for example, I had hoped to develop the docks up round to the north where the real Muttrah docks has had a big extension made up there just as I was finishing the map and this area would become the initial staging and landing area for the USMC where the vehicle depo etc could be better located and protected, also opening up the rest of the docks for more fighting.

That would've been amazing! Muttrah definitely feels a bit too cramped for 100 players, it was much better with 64 max.

Many benefits as I said for removing flag bleed, enemy main is right there and has assets ready to push out.

More likely scenario: Players will start trolling or leaving the server, because the game is clearly over at that point. That already happens when the steamroll is too fast and the bleed is too slow.

[InfantryGamer42]

During Insurgency as insurgents we dont have things like ticket bleed to help us. We mop their tickets up manually by killing infantry and assets.

And whiteout flag bleed on AAS, most people will just go to camp enemy main, because flags will lose one big point of there existence and importance.

Other AAS maps no ticket bleed either like if Russians dont get Mosque on Kafr Halab AAS. We kill them all in attrition.

Many benefits as I said for removing flag bleed, enemy main is right there and has assets ready to push out. But it takes strategy, if you have anti-air vehicle dont leave that behind if taking out tanks with enemy CAS up. Things like that. Max out support and output. There is only 100-200 tickets left per side or even less by the time it gets to the last flag..

Why would anybody attack main and lose tickets for no need, when you can just camp it. And lets not forget that in that point enemy team sin 9/10 cases starts trolling each other. As such, there are no assets to push as out.

We have MEC main right outside the fort on Muttrah with a bleed flag before it south city. Same with Bamyan AAS ALT with the USMC airfield having 2 checkpoint bleed flags right before it. Rendering epic place to fight useless cause never enough tickets left at the end anyways.. Its like skirmish with one or both sides have 200 tickets or less by that point, let it play out.

Simplistic way of looking. In case of Fort, in ideal world all main bases would be placed outside map borders. For now, that is not case (and maybe impossible or to taxing for DEVs to implement), except for few maps whit outside airfield.

Bamyan Alt on other hand is case of questionable design. Ticket bleed should start only after capture of flag.

[WingWalker]

I don't like the ticket bleed, I feel like there should be some ability for hope on the last flag.

A team coming back after being beaten all the way to the fortress would be TOTAL EPIC PR.

I love long matches though.

Really long matches give time for multiple epic stories to take place.

I remember match ups like this, you would have total periods of time where different things would happen and thinking back on the match it was like everything different you did happened on a different day of the week, felt very epic.

But yeah, as Rhino said people on PR generally do not like longer run times on maps. I personally love a match that would go on for hours.

With MEC beaten to the Fortress, there is no spawn ability by the time the US is down there. Maybe if the MEC could spawn no matter how many US are in there, allowing for a fight to take place, with the ticket bleed so it doesn't go on forever.

The US still seems to have that chance though when beaten to the Docks since they can spawn on the carrier.

[Nate.]

fyi please open a new thread if you want to discuss ticket bleed in general

[Nightingale]

I think this should be less one-sided, now it should be a lot harder for MEC to rush the flag. I know there is still the bottleneck at the I9 highway area. In my mind, BluFor would be able to use the I11 mountain to build TOWs/mortars and stuff to overlook the dockside. IDF should use this big mountain to their advantage.

Let me know what you think.

And please make a new thread if you don't plan on discussing Muttrah.

[Coalz101]

3 Indestructible Namers vs Shilka and 3 BTRs. That's not balanced at all. The namer is equivalent to a BTR 82A in my opinion, maybe even BMP2 (No ATGM). Gazelle won't be much of a challenge, I imagine the pilots getting sniped out by 50 cal fire.

[WingWalker]

Just had a good round on Muttrah.

I don't think there is an imbalance generally unless the MEC is back to fortress.

The time before the U.S. got down to the fortress then it was no fighting becasue the MEC couldn't spawn.

This time the MEC fought the U.S. all the way back to North City and U.S held them there, but lost.

I still feel the MEC has no chance once beaten back to fortress, though the U.S. can always get to the Docks, or anywhere else in the city, from the carrier.

That is weird, since the map is supposedly the MECs home town with all their supplies, so they should have the advantage when it comes to spawning.

[Coalz101]

That is weird, since the map is supposedly the MECs home town with all their supplies, so they should have the advantage when it comes to spawning.

Consider World War 2, D-Day landings, its obvious that even though its suppose to be their territory they still have to wait for supplies as its not a Main Military Depot for them. In other words if you lose the front you will fall back because you'll not be able to get reinforcements in time to save it.