Decrease Deviation time

[BigBigMonkeyMan]

My input on this is that deviation works both ways. We have both been saved, won gunfights we shouldn't have, and also killed people we shouldn't have because of deviation. I love the pacing and gameplay of PR as it is. Sure it changed a little in the last patch to make semi-auto the preferred method when it comes to rifles, but it also made MGs more lethal when deployed but the pacing is essentially the same as it has always been. My K/D has dropped like 1 percentage point since that change, but that is because I had been playing HALO and my CQB tactics in PR suffered because of that. The pacing of gameplay has stayed the same and I love it. The feel of those long distance firefights across hilltops are something you do not get in any other game and it is because deviation. Anytime I lose a gun battle that I have the advantage in, I just think back to a time that I killed someone who clearly had the jump on me because I spun around and got a lucky no-scope headshot or something on them.

*also I do not play assets regularly at all, reflected in my K/D that you can see below*

[Nate.]

My input on this is that deviation works both ways. We have both been saved, won gunfights we shouldn't have, and also killed people we shouldn't have because of deviation.

Exactly - and the one feature that you need to sustainably overcome these effects in gunfights is teamplay because gunfights unfold at a squad level.

[Psyko]

I think full and burst should have deviation penalties, and single should have faster shrinking of the deviation ring.

[ismaelassassin]

i think deviation should be increased, im shooting targets full auto at 100 and im able to hit them pretty easily even when i just stopped running, what is this? Call of duty?

[Danesh_italiano]

i think deviation should be increased, im shooting targets full auto at 100 and im able to hit them pretty easily even when i just stopped running, what is this? Call of duty?

full auto at 100m and still hittin (probably doing that with G3, right?!)

aimbot + norecoil hax detected.

[UncleSmek]

Yeah, no shit sherlock, last time I conversed with you on a topic you went personal almost immediately.

And the times before that you followed the same path as I described above, from trying to disregard those who say anything else, coupled with attempts to belittle or ridicule them, and build your own credibility around an assortment of people who stay incognito, for example the quoted "everybody who I talked to" or "any capable fragger", depending on the situation.

I have zero patience for this attitude of yours. Fix it.

I can understand if you have a problem with my attitude but thats not what we are arguing.
We are arguing gun mechanics and how they currently are very bad.
You project all of these things on me when it is like Danesh says, you, who are doing it.

When everyone of the long lasting passionately engaged people tell you something isnt right you quickly go in defensive mode instead of trying to understand you judge. I dont want to make this personal but i can understand if there is a lot of work hours being put into something and it builds a sentimental value but it has to be reviewed.

[Nate.]

Next off-topic personal bickering gets an infraction.

Discuss deviation time decreases.

[Frontliner]

No.
Defense already struggles to be viable over all-out aggression in CQB, the moment you decide to further decrease move deviation, you give even more of an incentive to be the attacker over a squad/team deciding to be more defensive in their approach.
And the more attacking yields better results than defending does, the more you go back to a simple arcade shooter.



It's year 18 in the mod's lifetime, why on Earth is it even a topic worthy of discussion over whether or not we should have modern FPS syndromes plague this game as well? Why is a thread that merely says "do this" without any elaboration on the part of the thread submitter allowed in the first place?

[Mats391]

I think settling time, and I agree, a slight decrease is going to reward tactical position more. Why? Well, you can lay an ambush now all you want but if you have to reposition a few feet, you're about as punished as the guy that was running around all day.

The M4 has these settling times after reaching maximum deviation:

Jump/Prone/Switch: 5 seconds
Movement: 3.7 seconds
Turning: 1.1 seconds
Firing: 1.5 seconds

So removing "1 second" from it would be way too much for Turning and Firing. Also how should it be reduced in your opinion? Increase the decay or lower the maximum deviation?

For completeness how long it takes to reach max:
Movement strafe: 5 seconds
Movement walk: 4 seconds
Turn pitch: 0.7 seconds
Turn yaw: 0.5 seconds
Firing: 2-3 shots (assuming firing every tick)

[Grump/Gump.45]

The M4 has these settling times after reaching maximum deviation:

Jump/Prone/Switch: 5 seconds
Movement: 3.7 seconds
Turning: 1.1 seconds
Firing: 1.5 seconds

Smek complaining about deviation says "I'm getting awfully lot of feedback on my thread from people who actually do not kill anything at all.. Any capable fragger is aware of these changes and how they are bad."

I say the people complaining about deviation have never touched a rifle or simulated the real factors that go into deviation. Even without doing these things, thinking what it would be like, what could happen gives a realistic idea. If I had to teach people with no experience I would ask "what possible issues could you face?" to make them think about it accurately. Its more than just simply shouldering and bringing scope up to eye, there are very fine millimeter and adjustments of the body to take accurate shot. The final fixing of the rifle to shoulder or cheek weld.

This is "Project Reality", it says "Realistic Gaming Redefined". Be happy the 2 point rifle sling doesn't get caught up on left plate carrier cummerbund pouches from the front end of rifle sling attachment not letting you raise the rifle to point shoot even at maximum sling length. (every 2 point sling should be able to go to 1 point sling D ring and then buckle detach rifle from sling completely).

The bio-mechanical ergonomics behind this. Only thing I would change, because to be honest I love the deviation how it represents panic and other rifle movements we can't animate but it can be reprsented through deviation. This doesn't make much a difference to me, but if more realism aspects are to be added to deviation.

My only real deviation complaint is when a bullet fired from "the hip". There is hip deviation but we can't see the dots, not that we need dots. In close range point shooting goes just a bodies width off target more than once, it will go left, it will go right of target. As if my barrel was deflected away from the front of my body where pointed without touching/bumping the enemy. The cone of fire deviation leaving the barrel at 10 meters without body contact with enemy might need to be looked at. Body contact should effect deviation and barrel deflection.

The only thing I would add is for turning to improve realism, give 2 or 3 types of deviation based on scope/iron sight and hip. Hip deviation and scopes should take 1 second for fast turning, but aimed in iron sights should be half a second for iron sights. For iron sights there is no delay between the eyes, the brain and body.

My reasoning is several hard to label and describe feelings, pick up something to use as a weapon. Maneuver it around obstacles and people. Best example I can give of relationship between body, brain and rifle with scope would be coordination speed. While aimed in with a locked in shoulder weld I can snap to targets in less than 1 second for iron sights. No more than a dot space between the 2 dots, maybe the 2 dots are 2 dots but touching each other

For movement deviation on a standard rifle, I almost never sit still in firefights. Always left to right movement, I would have to look at the maximum dot spacings for left to right movement and what the actual bullet impact point is in reference to the sight. It feels alright for movement.

[PatrickLA_CA]

The M4 has these settling times after reaching maximum deviation:

Jump/Prone/Switch: 5 seconds
Movement: 3.7 seconds
Turning: 1.1 seconds
Firing: 1.5 seconds

So removing "1 second" from it would be way too much for Turning and Firing. Also how should it be reduced in your opinion? Increase the decay or lower the maximum deviation?

For completeness how long it takes to reach max:
Movement strafe: 5 seconds
Movement walk: 4 seconds
Turn pitch: 0.7 seconds
Turn yaw: 0.5 seconds
Firing: 2-3 shots (assuming firing every tick)

I think lowering the decay, perhaps 1 second is too much in certain cases, but 15% to 20% might be an okay value for testing. I do not think firing decay should be lowered at all. Just the ones related to moving, turning and switching while keeping the maximum deviation as it is.

This way you should still be able to reach max deviation value with movement etc but it will take slightly less time for it to settle.

[UncleSmek]

The M4 has these settling times after reaching maximum deviation:

Jump/Prone/Switch: 5 seconds
Movement: 3.7 seconds
Turning: 1.1 seconds
Firing: 1.5 seconds

So removing "1 second" from it would be way too much for Turning and Firing. Also how should it be reduced in your opinion? Increase the decay or lower the maximum deviation?

For completeness how long it takes to reach max:
Movement strafe: 5 seconds
Movement walk: 4 seconds
Turn pitch: 0.7 seconds
Turn yaw: 0.5 seconds
Firing: 2-3 shots (assuming firing every tick)

Maybe decrease Firing by 0.75?

[Nate.]

Maybe decrease Firing by 0.75?

Reducing firing deviation settle time could be interesting given the recent recoil changes. But how does this address your problem Smek? (see below)


[quote=""Smek"]

I think settling time, and I agree, a slight decrease is going to reward tactical position more. Why? Well, you can lay an ambush now all you want but if you have to reposition a few feet, you're about as punished as the guy that was running around all day.

This is what i mean.[/quote]

[UncleSmek]

Reducing firing deviation settle time could be interesting given the recent recoil changes. But how does this address your problem Smek? (see below)

That is legit concerns and I think Cobras words speak for themselves.

[Killer2354]

??? I'm gone for a few days and it's assumed that people disagreeing either don't play the game or can't shoot. The game is this old and this is what is being assumed still? Alright.

Regarding decay, I'm actually not sure how much it needs to be changed. Even with full deviation from walking around, you can still really easily bring your rifle on target with a soldier at ~30m and hit with some pretty good regularity. Based on the numbers above, even walking forward for a second would require less than a second to be back at full accuracy. Jump and prone deviation should stay as is. Minor repositions have almost 0 penalty as it is, too.

Decreasing decay time from shooting would be interesting to test. A decrease of .75 seems pretty drastic, though. Why this big of a change? You wouldn't normally hit max deviation from shooting unless you're engaging in burst/auto. I guess this would impact longer range engagements, but do we want those to be quicker? I'm just curious because I don't see anything wrong with the settings as they are.

[axytho]

Why are we decreasing deviation time?

Will it improve teamplay? No, it will reduce teamplay, as it will make reduce the time you have to communicate movement before you get shot.

Will it make the game more realistic? No it will do the reverse, people take time to aim IRL (*surprise*) (citation: any InRange/Forgotten Weapons action match, and these guys have more firearms experience than the average soldier).

Those two questions: (improve teamplay?/improve realism?) should be the only balance questions asked.

[WingWalker]

WOW...

Can you people stop posting on the forums every time you miss a kill...

HOW can you have so many problems with hitting someone in PR???? How?

There are multiple threads now of someone saying how PR is totally ruined because of some minor tweek with recoil, settle time, or deviation.

I posted in one of the other threads about the settle... whatever it was... I actually tested the ability to hit something with no settle time and the deviation was such a little factor that I was running, stopping, shooting, and killing bots in about 3 shots within a second, out to 50m+.

Another thread was about MG recoil or deviation being to much and ruining game play. I tested that, and with an MG from standing position moving and firing I was hitting bots out to about hundreds of meters in 1-3 bursts.

Now 1 second of settle time will change all of PR and fix "gun play"...

These arguments are getting ridiculous, even if you ADDED 1 second, it would not "ruin gun play"

[rogdozz]

I think deviation is fine. Sometimes it gets annoying with MGs not hitting burst fire at range but it's acceptable. With rifles I don't see a problem at all and I can't remember a single situation where deviation didn't work as intended for me.

Maybe if one of the complainers recorded some footage of situations where deviation "ruined" a firefight, we would understand better what they actually mean because right now it seems some people don't understand each other in this thread.

[Brotherscompany]

Why are we decreasing deviation time?

Will it improve teamplay? No, it will reduce teamplay, as it will make reduce the time you have to communicate movement before you get shot.

Will it make the game more realistic? No it will do the reverse, people take time to aim IRL (*surprise*) (citation: any InRange/Forgotten Weapons action match, and these guys have more firearms experience than the average soldier).

Those two questions: (improve teamplay?/improve realism?) should be the only balance questions asked.

On point

[Multi]

Is deviation realistic? Not really, bullets don't work that way. a realistic way to portray "time needed to make an accurate shot" would be mouse Sway depending on stamina

Can weapon sway depending on stamina be implemented on BF2? Probably not, definitely not in the near future considering the engine

So considering engine limitations, is deviation a good alternative for realism?: Yes, it's not a perfect solution, but it brings real life limitations on accuracy and it changes the gameplay in a way that encourages a more "realistic" aproach to firefights and teamwork.

I find that the timing on deviation right now is good as it is, an ideal solution would be mouse sway but at the moment I think that it works pretty well, I never considered the current deviation times to be a "game ruining" mechanic and there are very rare moments where I thought "This weapon stabilization is taking too much time"