Decrease Deviation time

[UncleSmek]

Why are we decreasing deviation time?

Will it improve teamplay? No, it will reduce teamplay, as it will make reduce the time you have to communicate movement before you get shot.

Will it make the game more realistic? No it will do the reverse, people take time to aim IRL (*surprise*) (citation: any InRange/Forgotten Weapons action match, and these guys have more firearms experience than the average soldier).

Those two questions: (improve teamplay?/improve realism?) should be the only balance questions asked.

Just because you have smother and more predictable gun mechanics doesnt chip away at teamwork at all.. the idea is completely absurd.

[axytho]

Just because you have smother and more predictable gun mechanics doesnt chip away at teamwork at all.. the idea is completely absurd.

It does. There is no point in doing call outs in a game where you can train so that you can insta kill anything you see.

I don't want a game where you can "train" to headshot 100% of the time. CS:GO/R6/a million other games already allow this. I don't want to have to "train" to get "good" at a video game.

With long deviation, you're forced to think which angle you're covering, but it's also more rewarding if someone comes that way, because they can't outshoot you, no matter how good they are.

Is deviation realistic? Not really, bullets don't work that way. a realistic way to portray "time needed to make an accurate shot" would be mouse Sway depending on stamina

Actuallt, I find deviation more realistic than the weapon sway implemented by other games. Other games assume that you hold your gun at the ready at all times, which is ridiculous. You can jump of the first story of a building and immediately ADS, and shoot a good grouping at 100 meters in less than second?

PR forces teamwork by forcing (to a degree) the same decision people make IRL. If you're in the middle of a field, and there's a machine gun watching you, you should die. It shouldn't matter how good your aim is, how wide your monitor is or even your reaction time.

[PatrickLA_CA]

I don't want a game where you can "train" to headshot 100% of the time. CS:GO/R6/a million other games already allow this. I don't want to have to "train" to get "good" at a video game.

Well then lets make CAS gameplay also random (oh wait) so players that train their skills won't be overpowered against someone who jumped in a jet or CAS chopper for the first time. Hell, let's show enemy player blips on the minimap so players that work on their tactics won't have an advantage either.

I agree, gunplay must not be nearly the same as games such as CS:GO, CoD etc etc. But saying that hitting more consistently will ruin teamplay makes no sense as an argument.

Deviation is good, the way guns are not shooting like lasers is good. IMO settling time after switching, and movement needs to go down by a fraction.

I find being sprayed by a guy that was just running and being randomly hit is less realistic than having a higher chance for a first hit if you've rotated by 90 degrees or moved for a meter after staying stationary for a while.

As I said, minor changes only. Nothing too drastic, it will reward ambushes and defense more than offense.

[Coalz101]

Is deviation realistic? Not really, bullets don't work that way. a realistic way to portray "time needed to make an accurate shot" would be mouse Sway depending on stamina

Can weapon sway depending on stamina be implemented on BF2? Probably not, definitely not in the near future considering the engine

So considering engine limitations, is deviation a good alternative for realism?: Yes, it's not a perfect solution, but it brings real life limitations on accuracy and it changes the gameplay in a way that encourages a more "realistic" aproach to firefights and teamwork.

I find that the timing on deviation right now is good as it is, an ideal solution would be mouse sway but at the moment I think that it works pretty well, I never considered the current deviation times to be a "game ruining" mechanic and there are very rare moments where I thought "This weapon stabilization is taking too much time"

Que? link for vid below
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMXWE3SEPmk[/youtube]

Although its only visual as far as I know, it's already a start. You should follow the devs some more, there's footage some way of fastropes being tested as well as airlifting vehicles. Although it's unlikely that those features are high on the priority list, they still have atleast some form of ground work ready for someone to take over.

[rogdozz]

Well then lets make CAS gameplay also random (oh wait) so players that train their skills won't be overpowered against someone who jumped in a jet or CAS chopper for the first time. Hell, let's show enemy player blips on the minimap so players that work on their tactics won't have an advantage either.

I agree, gunplay must not be nearly the same as games such as CS:GO, CoD etc etc. But saying that hitting more consistently will ruin teamplay makes no sense as an argument.

PR is about team play and tactics, not about who can aim better. It's not that complicated. You're just an ordinary soldier who got the same stamina, same running speed, same weapon, same aiming skills etc. as everybody else. It's about what you make out of those tool by working together with others and making right decisions.

I don't want this game to become like SQUAD where one player has the aiming skills of a grunt on his first day at bootcamp, while another player can aim like special forces soldier because he has better muscle memory for moving his mouse. It unevens the playing field and also makes it harder to balance weapons.

[PatrickLA_CA]

But teamplay and tactics also depend on who can do it better, just like everything else in the world

[UncleSmek]

It does. There is no point in doing call outs in a game where you can train so that you can insta kill anything you see.

I don't want a game where you can "train" to headshot 100% of the time. CS:GO/R6/a million other games already allow this. I don't want to have to "train" to get "good" at a video game.

With long deviation, you're forced to think which angle you're covering, but it's also more rewarding if someone comes that way, because they can't outshoot you, no matter how good they are.


Actuallt, I find deviation more realistic than the weapon sway implemented by other games. Other games assume that you hold your gun at the ready at all times, which is ridiculous. You can jump of the first story of a building and immediately ADS, and shoot a good grouping at 100 meters in less than second?

PR forces teamwork by forcing (to a degree) the same decision people make IRL. If you're in the middle of a field, and there's a machine gun watching you, you should die. It shouldn't matter how good your aim is, how wide your monitor is or even your reaction time.

If guns are accurate you are forced to play more teamwork and your maneuvering will be more prudent.. you have a lot of these things backward im afraid.

[Killer2354]

If guns are accurate you are forced to play more teamwork and your maneuvering will be more prudent.. you have a lot of these things backward im afraid.

Actually, to run counter to this, I find that being able to be pretty precise even after coming out of sprinting is what drives me away from Squad sometimes. I've had multiple scenarios that I've come out of a full sprint to immediately headshot a dude with a scoped rifle at about 50m with some alarming regularity. There's no thought that comes into this; I can turn my brain off and run at a corner, and if I can react faster to contacts being there than the enemy, I will win the engagement. PR currently punishes me for being out of position or rushing an engagement. It is harder for an individual to wrack up squad wipes in PR than it is in Squad.

One thing that does irk me is the suggestion to change something without giving specific examples about what of the deviation system isn't working as you would hope. This is really becoming a game of guessing what the other person is saying. And if you really want changes to be made, as the OP, you really should be giving something concrete.

[UncleSmek]

Actually, to run counter to this, I find that being able to be pretty precise even after coming out of sprinting is what drives me away from Squad sometimes. I've had multiple scenarios that I've come out of a full sprint to immediately headshot a dude with a scoped rifle at about 50m with some alarming regularity. There's no thought that comes into this; I can turn my brain off and run at a corner, and if I can react faster to contacts being there than the enemy, I will win the engagement. PR currently punishes me for being out of position or rushing an engagement. It is harder for an individual to wrack up squad wipes in PR than it is in Squad.

One thing that does irk me is the suggestion to change something without giving specific examples about what of the deviation system isn't working as you would hope. This is really becoming a game of guessing what the other person is saying. And if you really want changes to be made, as the OP, you really should be giving something concrete.

Too long didnt read.

/user infracted for useless post - if you don't want to engage in a proper discussion, just don't.- Mod

[PatrickLA_CA]

One thing that does irk me is the suggestion to change something without giving specific examples about what of the deviation system isn't working as you would hope. This is really becoming a game of guessing what the other person is saying. And if you really want changes to be made, as the OP, you really should be giving something concrete.

But I am saying a specific example. No I do not suggest being able to headshot a dude at 50m immediately after a full sprint. I am suggesting being less punished after waiting for a while and then having to make a small adjustment as to peek over a window or slightly crest over a hill.

[Cpt.Future]

Example for why decreasing devation time after movement wouldn't increase the need for teamwork:
If I move across some open field/road/whatever and someone is shooting at me, I won't be able to effectively return fire for a fair amount of time. In that case, I benefit from having a squad member cover me from a stationary position. He'll be able to quickly and accurately return fire and perhaps take out my attacker.
That both makes the game more realistic (real life tactics like bounding overwatch are a viable option) and encourages teamwork and communication, which basically is the point of PR (imo)

[PatrickLA_CA]

And it still would remain the same, moving for a while is still going to have a high penalty, deviation won't be changed. The only difference would be that your friend, who is covering you, will settle his accuracy slightly faster if he has to move two meters forwards and turn his gun around to be able to cover you while you, who've been running for a while, will have to wait some more for your total deviation to come down after you stop moving. The idea is to slightly reduce the time it takes for deviation to go down for smaller movements that might be moving to the next window, cresting the hill etc

[rogdozz]

And it still would remain the same, moving for a while is still going to have a high penalty, deviation won't be changed. The only difference would be that your friend, who is covering you, will settle his accuracy slightly faster if he has to move two meters forwards and turn his gun around to be able to cover you while you, who've been running for a while, will have to wait some more for your total deviation to come down after you stop moving. The idea is to slightly reduce the time it takes for deviation to go down for smaller movements that might be moving to the next window, cresting the hill etc

Even if you move two meters, it should cost you significant deviation. This makes a difference for example when I have AR kit and hiding behind cover, and an enemy rifleman knows I'm there and is aiming at me. I shouldn't be able to walk out of cover and immediately engage the rifleman with accuracy. As long as the enemy rifleman is stationary and aiming at my location, I should be at such a disadvantage that I'm forced to stay behind cover or relocate. This is an important factor in balancing AR, MG, sniper etc.

[axytho]

Even if you move two meters, it should cost you significant deviation. This makes a difference for example when I have AR kit and hiding behind cover, and an enemy rifleman knows I'm there and is aiming at me. I shouldn't be able to walk out of cover and immediately engage the rifleman with accuracy. As long as the enemy rifleman is stationary and aiming at my location, I should be at such a disadvantage that I'm forced to stay behind cover or relocate. This is an important factor in balancing AR, MG, sniper etc.

Exactly. In any FPS, moving around a lot is usually the best strategy, because it keeps your location hidden. Ping/peeker's advantage/grenades also play a role.

Deviation is what prevents this from happening in PR.

[Bastiannn]

I'm getting awfully lot of feedback on my thread from people who actually do not kill anything at all.. Any capable fragger is aware of these changes and how they are bad.

Originally I thought that was a harsh comment but as pages go on people just prove this point, talking about things you can't do that you can actually do, about how to play infantry when its actually the opposite of what they say, grump writing a book about how medics keep his kd negative, teamwork and invoking realism, etc. Basically what you'd expect from players who are not performing that good at infantry.

I played a bit of Squad recently and realized that deviation in PR can be your friend, so I can only ask Smek why does he keep pushing for a change that would give these players an easier time in game when they clearly don't want it.

Deviation can and does fuck you over every now and then, but good players will be good players no matter what, and I will happily live with it if it means these players don't have an easier way to kill me, especially so because thats what they advocate for.

[UncleSmek]

Originally I thought that was a harsh comment but as pages go on people just prove this point, talking about things you can't do that you can actually do, about how to play infantry when its actually the opposite of what they say, grump writing a book about how medics keep his kd negative, teamwork and invoking realism, etc. Basically what you'd expect from players who are not performing that good at infantry.

I played a bit of Squad recently and realized that deviation in PR can be your friend, so I can only ask Smek why does he keep pushing for a change that would give these players an easier time in game when they clearly don't want it.

Deviation can and does fuck you over every now and then, but good players will be good players no matter what, and I will happily live with it if it means these players don't have an easier way to kill me, especially so because thats what they advocate for.

Well said and point taken.
However, I must say that I would be more comfortable and the game would be much more fun if it was easier to get shot and worse players can offer more challenge and not be at the behest of the gun mechanics. But I do get your point.

[Killer2354]

But I am saying a specific example. No I do not suggest being able to headshot a dude at 50m immediately after a full sprint. I am suggesting being less punished after waiting for a while and then having to make a small adjustment as to peek over a window or slightly crest over a hill.

Sorry for not responding to this sooner. If you are making a very small adjustment like you said, your wait to have no movement penalty is very minimal currently. If you have to move 1-2m, you don't have any real appreciatable impact in your aim unless you're actually engaging targets at about 100m or further. If you're engaging fairly close in, 1-2m of movement should still land your shots on target. Even a very brief pause should be enough if you're afraid you're going to miss.

Now, this is going by exact numbers. Players might underestimate ranges in their head or overestimate how long it took them to shoot a target. It's hard to fully understand what people are going for through just words. I feel like there's also a significant misunderstanding going on this thread, and it does not help that people are attacking others instead of engaging in conversation between the split of people that like deviation as it is and those that want less deviation.

Random question: are there commands, possibly debug commands, to see what the cone of fire is visually? I want to replicate some of the issues that people are reporting in this thread. I'll really need to record and upload some videos because I cannot replicate what people are having issues with. Then maybe someone can correct me and I can find out what I'm apparently not understanding.

[axytho]

Sorry for not responding to this sooner. If you are making a very small adjustment like you said, your wait to have no movement penalty is very minimal currently. If you have to move 1-2m, you don't have any real appreciatable impact in your aim unless you're actually engaging targets at about 100m or further. If you're engaging fairly close in, 1-2m of movement should still land your shots on target. Even a very brief pause should be enough if you're afraid you're going to miss.

Now, this is going by exact numbers. Players might underestimate ranges in their head or overestimate how long it took them to shoot a target. It's hard to fully understand what people are going for through just words. I feel like there's also a significant misunderstanding going on this thread, and it does not help that people are attacking others instead of engaging in conversation between the split of people that like deviation as it is and those that want less deviation.

Random question: are there commands, possibly debug commands, to see what the cone of fire is visually? I want to replicate some of the issues that people are reporting in this thread. I'll really need to record and upload some videos because I cannot replicate what people are having issues with. Then maybe someone can correct me and I can find out what I'm apparently not understanding.

I don't know about debug commands, but you could jump up then fire a cone, then use the "deviation dots" at the bottom of your screen for a measure of your current deviation relative to this "maximum" cone.

[Grump/Gump.45]

Well said and point taken.
However, I must say that I would be more comfortable and the game would be much more fun if it was easier to get shot and worse players can offer more challenge and not be at the behest of the gun mechanics. But I do get your point.

But it makes sense for the newer guys to miss under stress. You can go to a range all day but throw some panic, full gear on and all the other factors you can't point your rifle as easy as you want. Also watch PR videos of some people on YT, the connection issues/lag makes it look un-playable for them.

Only thing I have seen deviation needs fixing is non-body contact hip fire under 10-20 meters. No reason for rounds to go targets width off to side of screen for point shooting unless you bump your enemy keeping your rifle from coming up, deflected across or outside the body frame.

Do you know how a rifle or any weapon slung has trouble getting around pouches? The final second of aiming where you tighten grip, posture, cheek weld, etc. The exact moment when 2 dots would become one dot. I would say even the 2 dots represent target confidence as a partial factor.

All the times playing dead, defending flags alone to practice going up against full squads, I would know deviation isn't the problem. You aren't invincible in this game. Also keep in mind CO-OP kills count too for the STATS. Teamwork from others is the issue. 1 versus 8, do the math. Also the fact some players camp FOBs, they switch to stacked team all the time meaning they get easier vehicle kills and squad wipes with grenades. Its not the deviation that makes people bad.

[Frontliner]

Random question: are there commands, possibly debug commands, to see what the cone of fire is visually? I want to replicate some of the issues that people are reporting in this thread. I'll really need to record and upload some videos because I cannot replicate what people are having issues with. Then maybe someone can correct me and I can find out what I'm apparently not understanding.

Not really, no. You could calculate it though if you wanted. You could also alter the files to not use speed/turn deviation and then simply increase minimum deviation to observe. Keep in mind there's also stance and ADS modifiers as well.