Falklands - Overabundance of AA

[PBAsydney]

With the Tigercat SAM and Blowpipe already being hilariously powerful, having buildable Igla/Stinger sites just seems excessive, especially since the lock on range scales with view distance, and flares on jets do not work. I would suggest removing buildable AA sites for GB82 and ARG.

[Mats391]

Stinger and Igla lock ranges should be limited to 1500m. If they arent, it is a bug.

[Coalz101]

Stinger and Igla lock ranges should be limited to 1500m. If they arent, it is a bug.

That's not the point... Flying to high = Tigercat wrecks you when you try to CAS, to low and stingers and blowpipes wreck you since they can be placed virtually anywhere.

[Rhino]

PBAsydney, are you talking about in regards to Jets, Choppers or both? I agree, choppers have a really, really hard time and the CLOS SAMs are very powerful against them.

I'm thinking of making the Tigercat and Blowpipe only trigger their proximity sensors on aircraft moving at high speed, ie, only work against jets, so against choppers, you will need to get a direct hit on them, and also increase the amount they spin about on their own too to make it harder getting direct hits on choppers and ground vehicles.

As for Jets, I do want them to fear the AA since there are sooo many jets. If they can fly anywhere and bomb what the hell they like with impunity, playing as infantry is going to suck even more than it does already. I am looking at removing some Tigercats like the one at Pebble Island etc but I don't think the answer is to remove the deployable SAMs, that will make it even easier for jets to bomb infantry and FOBs.

That's not the point...

Mats was replying to this which is a valid point...

having buildable Igla/Stinger sites just seems excessive, especially since the lock on range scales with view distance

That is a serious issue if they are looking on beyond 1.5km.

[Outlawz7]

Lock range scales with view distance when view distance is below 1500m which is every map but Falklands.

[PBAsydney]

I don't think the lock-on range is going beyond 1.5k, so working as intended, just feels like it has crazy range because I am used to much shorter lock on range I guess.

Even if deployable AA is removed I don't think jets are going to be too overpowered. One competent player in a Tigercat or with a blowpipe can essentially deny the airspace over the entire east island.

I'm pulling these numbers out of my *** but I'd estimate that currently a jet doing a ground attack strike on Falklands has about a 80% of getting shot down.

Another solution would to be fix flares on jets...Maybe the community can crowdsource some pro python programmer to write a brand new guided missile system for PR?

[Rhino]

I don't think the lock-on range is going beyond 1.5k, so working as intended, just feels like it has crazy range because I am used to much shorter lock on range I guess.

Ye I can understand, most maps have around an 800m view distance, which then limits the lock range to just that so a map with a 3km VD is over 3x the VD of most maps and a lock distance of 1.5x to 2x what players are used to on most maps. So it is a pretty extreme difference.

Even if deployable AA is removed I don't think jets are going to be too overpowered. One competent player in a Tigercat or with a blowpipe can essentially deny the airspace over the entire east island.

Ye, as per here I'm going to look at removing some Tigercats, mainly the one from Pebble Island: https://www.realitymod.com/forum/showth ... p?t=151656

Are you just concerned about the power of these SAMs vs Jets, or are you talking about choppers as well? If about choppers, what do you think about the ideas I floated above?

I'm pulling these numbers out of my *** but I'd estimate that currently a jet doing a ground attack strike on Falklands has about a 80% of getting shot down.

Another solution would to be fix flares on jets...Maybe the community can crowdsource some pro python programmer to write a brand new guided missile system for PR?

Flares wouldn't do anything against the Tigercat and Blowpipe, and trying to bring in someone outside to write python code for BF2 is a non-starter as the key knowledge needed is how to get the code to work with the engine, not writing brand new code from scratch. I'm no expert on Python but if it is going to happen, will need to be done in house with someone who understands the BF2 engine and what you can do with it.

[Grump/Gump.45]

With the Tigercat SAM and Blowpipe already being hilariously powerful, having buildable Igla/Stinger sites just seems excessive, especially since the lock on range scales with view distance, and flares on jets do not work. I would suggest removing buildable AA sites for GB82 and ARG.

Anything else we build aside from static AA adds to the lock down. You aren't playing the right way if too much AA is the problem. Stay away from and exclude anti-air. The way people warn armor about TOW they know about, if they do actually warn needs to carry over to CAS for AA.

It takes a lot more coordination than people typically put into PR consistently. Added of 6 possible AA emplacements per side, I would say its tactically fair to deny certain sectors of the island.

As a pilot in Project Reality you should already be dividing the map in half in your head, your territory being the side with your main on it. Consider when enemy moves anti-air up as an airspace incursion that needs to be excluded till infantry can take it out or it can be hit by a 2nd aircraft taking its AA position attention away from your attack direction approach. Sort of like a vehicle turning a armor turret as bait so SPG can hit it. Same concept.

[Brotherscompany]

Lmao lets go, lets have 8 jets bombing the INF with all the existing cover in this map and destroying everyone just to shortly have another Jet following it up

[axytho]

Ok, then I guess Falklands will simply never be voted again.

Like seriously, who wants to be living target practice for snipers and CAS? There are not enough logis on the map to build fobs, so the entire team is usually stuck around a single fob, then cas comes in, and gets 20+ kills in one strike.

I'm pulling these numbers out of my *** but I'd estimate that currently a jet doing a ground attack strike on Falklands has about a 80% of getting shot down.

@PBASydney, join a random infantry squad as a medic on Falklands, play a full round, post tracker/video here, and see if you still have the same opinion.

[InfantryGamer42]

Ok, then I guess Falklands will simply never be voted again.

Nah, map is solid. It plays different,

Like seriously, who wants to be living target practice for snipers and CAS?

Like others said, CAS is largely out of land game. Combined force of mapper deployed AA, FOB AA, AA kit and enemy CAS is more then enough that land attack is extremely risky and in 9/10 ends with CAS being shutdown before any strike was ever done. Even if some of those assets were removed, both sides will still have enough to deny others air supremacy needed to actually preform ground attack missions.

There are not enough logis on the map to build fobs, so the entire team is usually stuck around a single fob, then cas comes in, and gets 20+ kills in one strike.

Brits have 1 trans helicopters (btw pls bring British CH-47 back) and 2 delayed logi trucks which is more then enough to build 3+ FOBs in first 10 minutes.
Argies on other side have 2 logi trucks and 3 trans helicopters in total which is again more then enough to place 4+ FOBs in first 10 minutes.

And even if teams are that much noob and manage to place only 1 FOB in total, combined AA assets (even if some are removed) are more then enough to counter enemy CAS.

[Rhino]

Brits have 1 trans helicopters (btw pls bring British CH-47 back)

Ummm, the British Chinook should be spawning on the Atlantic Conveyor after 15mins? Argies can prevent it from spawning (and from spawning others, max of 3 spawning) by destroying it, but that should still be the case?

[axytho]

Nah, map is solid. It plays different,
Like others said, CAS is largely out of land game. Combined force of mapper deployed AA, FOB AA, AA kit and enemy CAS is more then enough that land attack is extremely risky and in 9/10 ends with CAS being shutdown before any strike was ever done. Even if some of those assets were removed, both sides will still have enough to deny others air supremacy needed to actually preform ground attack missions.

It highly depends from game to game. It's true that CAS is shot down easily from the ground, but it's worth remembering that this is highly dependent on who is manning Tigercat SAM.

I stick to my point that there is not enough logistics. Trans is constantly shot down, so people usually don't even bother to create a trans squad, and logis take ages to traverse the map.

Then when you're actually building your fob, it's super in the open and easy target for cas which can bomb straight down and get out at 2000 altitude.

So any SL who builds fobs only does it once, and then basically waits for the game to end because they have zero usefull weapons to defend themselves with.

1) Heavy emplacements are useless (except TOW) and require you to spend half the match waiting for supplies that never arrive.

2) FN FAL isn't a threat to anyone with an AR/MG/scope past 100 meters unless you have a display the size of a wall.

3) The submachine guns are a sick joke, at >50 meters they don't hit anything and at 20-50 meters the ironsights obscure your vision so much that you might as well surrender. And if you're going to hipfire, the FAL is still a better choice.

...so the whole team spends the game running towards the flags from the one or two fobs they have to get into a range where their fal might be slightly usefull, then gets wrecked by CAS ground attack.

So yes, the CAS ground attack also gets whacked by the guy who has been bored on the AA for the past half hour, but that doesn't make the game any better for the inf, does it now?



TL;DR So that's why "let's buff cas, because it's useless at ground attack now" doesn't work. If you make cas actually be able to do ground attack, there's just no point in playing infantry at all.

Then the meta for inf just becomes

1) Grab as many sniper/marksman/MG/AA/HAT as you can

2) Disperse throughout the map and win on tickets.

3) don't build fobs because they only serve to drain tickets anyway by spawning more blueberries for cas to kill.

[InfantryGamer42]

Ummm, the British Chinook should be spawning on the Atlantic Conveyor after 15mins? Argies can prevent it from spawning (and from spawning others, max of 3 spawning) by destroying it, but that should still be the case?

I do not see it in asset list. And pretty sure I did not saw any British Chinook flying around in last few games I played.

[PBAsydney]

Then when you're actually building your fob, it's super in the open and easy target for cas which can bomb straight down and get out at 2000 altitude.

Doesn't work like that, bombs dropped from 2k detonate before they reach the ground, you need to fly inside AA range to attack ground.

And the Chinooks do spawn, they just aren't on the asset list.

[axytho]

Doesn't work like that, bombs dropped from 2k detonate before they reach the ground, you need to fly inside AA range to attack ground.

And the Chinooks do spawn, they just aren't on the asset list.

When I flew practice on Falkland servers with harriers, I could bomb Goose Green from around 2k, but I didn't check whether or not the bombs exploded in the air or on the ground. Seems logical that AA can shoot down jets when they bomb, else, what's the point of AA?

Also, because the chinooks are not on the asset list, trans rarely uses them, and very few people know that you can resupply the choppers from San Carlos, leading to very long resupply times.

[Rhino]

TL;DR So that's why "let's buff cas, because it's useless at ground attack now" doesn't work. If you make cas actually be able to do ground attack, there's just no point in playing infantry at all.

If you read my responses you will see that is the main point I've been making.

I do not see it in asset list. And pretty sure I did not saw any British Chinook flying around in last few games I played.

Ye, due to the spawn point being attached to the Atlantic Conveyor, instead of being part of the GPO.con so the script misses it. Not seeing it is most likely from either the AC being destroyed, or people not taking it.

[axytho]

If you read my responses you will see that is the main point I've been making.

As for Jets, I do want them to fear the AA since there are sooo many jets. If they can fly anywhere and bomb what the hell they like with impunity, playing as infantry is going to suck even more than it does already. I am looking at removing some Tigercats like the one at Pebble Island etc but I don't think the answer is to remove the deployable SAMs, that will make it even easier for jets to bomb infantry and FOBs.

I know, I've read them, and I agree fully. I'm writing walls of text because other people are saying "cas doesn't affect infantry" when it does.

[InfantryGamer42]

Then the meta for inf just becomes

1) Grab as many sniper/marksman/MG/AA/HAT as you can

2) Disperse throughout the map and win on tickets.

3) don't build fobs because they only serve to drain tickets anyway by spawning more blueberries for cas to kill.

Any nerf to AA on Falklands is in same time buff to trans helicopters and with that buff to infantry which will gain better logistic support. As such, I do not think your claim here would really manifest in practice.

I know, I've read them, and I agree fully. I'm writing walls of text because other people are saying "cas doesn't affect infantry" when it does.

Nobody here says that CAS doesn't affect infantry. But claim that CAS dominates infantry is untrue also, as AA net by both sides is extremely strong.

[Rhino]

Any nerf to AA on Falklands is in same time buff to trans helicopters and with that buff to infantry which will gain better logistic support. As such, I do not think your claim here would really manifest in practice.

I still haven't heard any feedback on these ideas which would nerf AA vs Choppers, but keep them more or less as effective as they are now vs jets.

I agree, choppers have a really, really hard time and the CLOS SAMs are very powerful against them.

I'm thinking of making the Tigercat and Blowpipe only trigger their proximity sensors on aircraft moving at high speed, ie, only work against jets, so against choppers, you will need to get a direct hit on them, and also increase the amount they spin/move about on their own too, to make it harder getting direct hits on choppers and ground vehicles.