=REALISTIC ENGINEER=
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Tactical Advantage
- Posts: 587
- Joined: 2005-02-10 20:43
=REALISTIC ENGINEER=
One thing I've noticed in all the BF games is how skilled the engineer is, i mean really, if you can fix a concrete and iron bridge with a 50ft hole in the center with a cresent wrench in a few seconds, my hats off to you... But come on, how realistic is that. Could PR actually make it where fixing bridges, tanks, etc. isnt a few second thing... Say maybe the maps would have certain vehicles on them that are used to repair bridges, etc. Like you park next to the blown out part, and remain there for a period of time, this way teams will have to cooperate to fix things, like the engineer needs covering fire while repairing the bridge, etc. And for tanks, etc. Park the engineer vehicle(maybe a modified hummer) next to the damage one, get out and then it will allow you to fix all the major damages. Something like that would be nice.
GOD BLESS AMERICA AND OUR ALLIES
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Super62
- Posts: 92
- Joined: 2004-12-20 06:57
Re: =REALISTIC ENGINEER=
This belongs in the suggestions forumTactical Advantage wrote:One thing I've noticed in all the BF games is how skilled the engineer is, i mean really, if you can fix a concrete and iron bridge with a 50ft hole in the center with a cresent wrench in a few seconds, my hats off to you... But come on, how realistic is that. Could PR actually make it where fixing bridges, tanks, etc. isnt a few second thing... Say maybe the maps would have certain vehicles on them that are used to repair bridges, etc. Like you park next to the blown out part, and remain there for a period of time, this way teams will have to cooperate to fix things, like the engineer needs covering fire while repairing the bridge, etc. And for tanks, etc. Park the engineer vehicle(maybe a modified hummer) next to the damage one, get out and then it will allow you to fix all the major damages. Something like that would be nice.
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keef_haggerd
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waffenbaum
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GABBA
- Posts: 633
- Joined: 2005-05-16 16:00
In most server's i enter, engineer is a class that is seldom picked. And i think making being an engineer''s job harder will definitley deter people from picking that class. And as you said once you place mines there is a big chance of killing your teammates. So right now engineer is a class that i rarely pick. Also a "modified hummer" will be used not for engineering purposes.
"Incoming fire has the rigth of way"...........
"never share a foxhole with anyone braver than you are"
"never share a foxhole with anyone braver than you are"
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Eddie Baker
- Posts: 6945
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Combat Engineers do perform demolition work, yes, but other things, too. Evilhomer is a retired British Army combat engineer, so he can speak on this topic from personal experience.keef_haggerd wrote:engs usually have explosives and stuff i think, so they should be the only ones able to destroy bridges, i think it would take alot of C4. This is a good question.... Baker? we are waiting for knowledge =)
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Evilhomer
- Retired PR Developer
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Engineering in the Army is a very broad subject.
For instance, you need to construct a Barracks. The first on the scene are geographical analysists and surveyors. They look at the terrain to see if it can deal with the task at hand. For a barracks, the site needs large amounts of supplies to be able to be ferried in on Flat land. So not on the top of a remote hill etc etc. Rescource specialists then look to see what rescources the ground can offer, such as water, and whether the ground is suitable for building upon. Artisans then move in heavy construction vehicles and logistics brings in materials. The basic foundations are then put in place with things such as plumbers and electricians moving in to build the infrastructure.
Bricklayers, Concreters, Carpenters and Joiners, Plant operator mechanics, and Building construction finishers then get to thier jobs.
As you can see that to repair a bridge in real life would take more than an engineer to do. This is where the combat engineer comes into play.
The role of a combat enginner is to bypass obstacles such as rivers or valleys in the fastest time possible. They use tank bridge transporters, foot bridges, floating two span bridges, amphibious rigs, and the armoured vehicle launcher bridge (AVLB). So instead of fixing the bridge you make a temporary bypass.
Combat enginners are also are trained in EOD. (Explosive Ordanace disposal). This consists of mines, IED's (improvised explosive device), ammunition etc etc. Anti mine warfare uses a tank to fire a line of explosive charge 200 m along the minefield. When this line detonates it creates a path 7m wide and 200m long. This destroys the mines and creates a safe passage. However, single mines such as in BF2 take a very long time to defuse safely, around 20 mins, and are usually disposed of with an explosive charge. A new weapon has come into light though, that fires an incendary bullet into the mine to destroy it.
Repairing vehicles is also a huge task, done by REME (Royal Electrical Mechanichal Engineers). This takes alot of skill and is very rarely done in the field, normally at the SHOP (Vehicle hanger). Vehicle recovery mechanics recover the vehicle from the site and bring it to the shop, where the mechanics can plug the vehicle into a laptop and which tells you what needs replacing.
As you can see the real life variants are very diffrent to BF2, but would not be applicable into the game. I would be very interested in what you may come up with to allow us to implement these tasks into the game, as I find it a challenging task.
For instance, you need to construct a Barracks. The first on the scene are geographical analysists and surveyors. They look at the terrain to see if it can deal with the task at hand. For a barracks, the site needs large amounts of supplies to be able to be ferried in on Flat land. So not on the top of a remote hill etc etc. Rescource specialists then look to see what rescources the ground can offer, such as water, and whether the ground is suitable for building upon. Artisans then move in heavy construction vehicles and logistics brings in materials. The basic foundations are then put in place with things such as plumbers and electricians moving in to build the infrastructure.
Bricklayers, Concreters, Carpenters and Joiners, Plant operator mechanics, and Building construction finishers then get to thier jobs.
As you can see that to repair a bridge in real life would take more than an engineer to do. This is where the combat engineer comes into play.
The role of a combat enginner is to bypass obstacles such as rivers or valleys in the fastest time possible. They use tank bridge transporters, foot bridges, floating two span bridges, amphibious rigs, and the armoured vehicle launcher bridge (AVLB). So instead of fixing the bridge you make a temporary bypass.
Combat enginners are also are trained in EOD. (Explosive Ordanace disposal). This consists of mines, IED's (improvised explosive device), ammunition etc etc. Anti mine warfare uses a tank to fire a line of explosive charge 200 m along the minefield. When this line detonates it creates a path 7m wide and 200m long. This destroys the mines and creates a safe passage. However, single mines such as in BF2 take a very long time to defuse safely, around 20 mins, and are usually disposed of with an explosive charge. A new weapon has come into light though, that fires an incendary bullet into the mine to destroy it.
Repairing vehicles is also a huge task, done by REME (Royal Electrical Mechanichal Engineers). This takes alot of skill and is very rarely done in the field, normally at the SHOP (Vehicle hanger). Vehicle recovery mechanics recover the vehicle from the site and bring it to the shop, where the mechanics can plug the vehicle into a laptop and which tells you what needs replacing.
As you can see the real life variants are very diffrent to BF2, but would not be applicable into the game. I would be very interested in what you may come up with to allow us to implement these tasks into the game, as I find it a challenging task.
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keef_haggerd
- Posts: 447
- Joined: 2005-04-09 08:10
well i think the eng class should maybe be replaced with the tank commander class, someone that has a way to slowly repair vehicles, or we should just simply do away with a class capable of fixing things. maybe we could just get rid of using mines? those are the only two things engs are useful for in this game. maybe we should just make some kind of new class to replace it or something.
"This is my rifle, this is my gun. This is for fighting, this is for fun"
-Full Metal Jacket
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BrokenArrow
- Retired PR Developer
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Medicoris
- Posts: 48
- Joined: 2005-07-17 18:38
Hmm, I'll pitch some ideas about what could be acceptable for some engineering tasks.
First off, the ability to create temporary bridges. My suggestion would be for the availbility of the M60 AVLB. Which, only the engineer can deploy.
Homer gave great details on how repairing vehicles went. My suggestion would be this; the use of the M88A2 Heavy Equipment Recovery Combat Utility Lift and Evacuation System (M88A2 HERCULES for short). It can tow and hoist the Abram and Challenger series with outstanding effectiveness. My opinion is, have only the engineer be allowed to drive this vehicle, and allow it to position the tank in the vehicle repair hanger.
There could be two options (maybe more, I'm sure you guys could think of others, or of course better ideas than this). Allow the engineer to 'enter' this station and it'll slowly repair over several minutes. Or, have it automatically repair over time, so the engineer can do other things then come back when it's repaired. The time could vary, based on the severity of the damage.
As I'm not quite as knowledgable about the British equivlents or imports of these two vehicles, Homer would be a much better source for that information.
That's my two cents on how an engineer could be more effective and realistic in PRMM. As of now in Battlefield 2, I love to play the engineer for the reason of it being underestimated. I mainly use mines to take care of tanks trying to take spawns (by placing a mine infront and behind them, then bait the tank to move), because people just don't pay attention when you place mines at strategic entrances or exits. Thus, your teammate usually speeds into your mines, rather than the enemy having that honor. The only problem I have is that the engineers unlockable weapon is also a shotgun, leaving you with only close range capabilities.
First off, the ability to create temporary bridges. My suggestion would be for the availbility of the M60 AVLB. Which, only the engineer can deploy.
Homer gave great details on how repairing vehicles went. My suggestion would be this; the use of the M88A2 Heavy Equipment Recovery Combat Utility Lift and Evacuation System (M88A2 HERCULES for short). It can tow and hoist the Abram and Challenger series with outstanding effectiveness. My opinion is, have only the engineer be allowed to drive this vehicle, and allow it to position the tank in the vehicle repair hanger.
There could be two options (maybe more, I'm sure you guys could think of others, or of course better ideas than this). Allow the engineer to 'enter' this station and it'll slowly repair over several minutes. Or, have it automatically repair over time, so the engineer can do other things then come back when it's repaired. The time could vary, based on the severity of the damage.
As I'm not quite as knowledgable about the British equivlents or imports of these two vehicles, Homer would be a much better source for that information.
That's my two cents on how an engineer could be more effective and realistic in PRMM. As of now in Battlefield 2, I love to play the engineer for the reason of it being underestimated. I mainly use mines to take care of tanks trying to take spawns (by placing a mine infront and behind them, then bait the tank to move), because people just don't pay attention when you place mines at strategic entrances or exits. Thus, your teammate usually speeds into your mines, rather than the enemy having that honor. The only problem I have is that the engineers unlockable weapon is also a shotgun, leaving you with only close range capabilities.
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TerribleOne
- Posts: 586
- Joined: 2005-06-26 16:00
How about we just have a eng with the abilitty to repair commander assets along with construct temporary bypasses for blown up bridges etc.
Vehicles that are blown up should be able to be fixed by a combat eng only when he is in 'freindly' territory. Also the eng fixes vehicles by actually lying under them with some laid on back animation made for that class (very vague but better then standing next to it imo)
For disposing of mines etc i believe (which can eb confirmed or rejected :roll the 'cord' that the tank sends out simply has a plastic explosive weived or powdered within the line.
I have heard of demo guys wrapping c4 very thin around rope and placing a detonator on the end with a fuse - lighting and get at a safe distance. This does the same thing as the tank line but mabe a smaller radious but i do think it could be somthing to include that would make it more fun.
As im sure this line could be used for things other then mines
Vehicles that are blown up should be able to be fixed by a combat eng only when he is in 'freindly' territory. Also the eng fixes vehicles by actually lying under them with some laid on back animation made for that class (very vague but better then standing next to it imo)
For disposing of mines etc i believe (which can eb confirmed or rejected :roll
the 'cord' that the tank sends out simply has a plastic explosive weived or powdered within the line.I have heard of demo guys wrapping c4 very thin around rope and placing a detonator on the end with a fuse - lighting and get at a safe distance. This does the same thing as the tank line but mabe a smaller radious but i do think it could be somthing to include that would make it more fun.
As im sure this line could be used for things other then mines
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Sh0rtbUs
- Posts: 157
- Joined: 2005-03-29 00:01
Just a note on Spec ops doing demolition. Although i am unable to speak too openly about it for obvious reasons (i myself was never Spec ops for the record), In recent conflicts ie. Afghanistan and iraq, Spec Ops were implemented for far more isolated roles, provided with vast support.
For instance, who do you think was guiding American Ordinants in Afghanistan? You may be surprised that it was the Canadian JTF2 for a lot of the time, demolitions rarely to none.
I havent first hand knowledge, but have contact with those who do, and Spec ops was often implemented as an Advanced recce (similar to an isolated role as Marine Recons during OIF). If something was to be eliminated, bigger toys were used than C4... =D
Evilhomer is right on the money concerning Combat Engineers. Hey Evil, ever blow up an ammo can? What a site...
For instance, who do you think was guiding American Ordinants in Afghanistan? You may be surprised that it was the Canadian JTF2 for a lot of the time, demolitions rarely to none.
I havent first hand knowledge, but have contact with those who do, and Spec ops was often implemented as an Advanced recce (similar to an isolated role as Marine Recons during OIF). If something was to be eliminated, bigger toys were used than C4... =D
Evilhomer is right on the money concerning Combat Engineers. Hey Evil, ever blow up an ammo can? What a site...
How can anyone trust something that can bleed for up to 7 days, monthly... and not die?
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Evilhomer
- Retired PR Developer
- Posts: 2193
- Joined: 2004-08-03 12:00
My hats off to all of you these ideas really are great!
Shortbus:
I never have no, i was mostly concerned with counter mine technology, and then moved on to unexploded ordanace on the homeland (unexploded WWII shells, Unexploded bombs etc etc. The IRA made sure we were allways kept on our toes...)
I stoppped around 5 years ago now, as when I was going through the Christians and Lions (this is where you take an exam every year and then you get assesed by a group of senior officers, then go into to get slaughtered by them for a licence, hence the term Christians and Lions.) I failed and lost my licence, so I moved onto teaching hapily .
TerribleOne:
That does sound like a good idea. By making vehicles harder to repair it should stop engineers just jumping out of a tank and fixing it then getting back in and whoring the entire base.
You are also quite correct when it comes to your counter mine knowledge. I forgot to mention that the weapon I was talking about was called PYTHON. Its around one and a half tonne of explosives and is towed behind the AVRE (Armoured Vehicle Royal Engineers). This vehicle is based on a cheiftan desighn, as is the AVLB (Armoured Vehicle Launcher Bridge).
The C4 trick is used yes, but I have heard of people usng grenades to do it too, which sounds suicidal to me as chances are you would have missed most of the mines anyway... Sounds like an old wifes tale that one...
Medicoris:
I think it's time I told you all a little bit more about AVLB.
The Cheiftan based vehicle reverses to the edge of the gap and then releases it's load in a sissor like action. Modern equivalents can do this in around 5 mins i think.
Alternativly the AVLB will send out a long rail across the gap. This allows a bridge to slide underneath the rail.Then the TBT (Tank Bridge Transporter) delievers the bridge, which they are connected to the rail and fitted into place. I cannot find any vids or pics for you but will keep trying!
The CHARRV (Challenger Armoured Repair Recovery Vehicle). It has two winches and a crane, plus space for spare parts. It also has a dozer at the front that is used to dig into the ground and steady the vehicle when lifting. It also can dig out vehicles, dig emplacments etc etc.
The Idea of having a vehicle recovery mechanic to collect a vehicle and bring it back to SHOP seems really good. I do agree!
I then proceeded to think that "How could we fit all these diffrent parts of engineering into the game?"
Then I thought maybe the engineer wouuld be map specific... For example, a map that depends on armour could use a Vehicle recovery engineer. A map that depends on infantry battles could use a 33 Engineer Regiment EOD squad. Or a mobile bridging unit on specific maps... If we make it so that engineers can utilise map specific vehicles, then the engineer could become one of the most fun classes to use ingame.
Edit: The closest I could find to images was from this site. This makes it easier to see what is happening when bridging: http://www.alvisvickers.co.uk/brochure/bridging.pdf
Shortbus:
I never have no, i was mostly concerned with counter mine technology, and then moved on to unexploded ordanace on the homeland (unexploded WWII shells, Unexploded bombs etc etc. The IRA made sure we were allways kept on our toes...)
I stoppped around 5 years ago now, as when I was going through the Christians and Lions (this is where you take an exam every year and then you get assesed by a group of senior officers, then go into to get slaughtered by them for a licence, hence the term Christians and Lions.) I failed and lost my licence, so I moved onto teaching hapily
.TerribleOne:
That does sound like a good idea. By making vehicles harder to repair it should stop engineers just jumping out of a tank and fixing it then getting back in and whoring the entire base.
You are also quite correct when it comes to your counter mine knowledge. I forgot to mention that the weapon I was talking about was called PYTHON. Its around one and a half tonne of explosives and is towed behind the AVRE (Armoured Vehicle Royal Engineers). This vehicle is based on a cheiftan desighn, as is the AVLB (Armoured Vehicle Launcher Bridge).
The C4 trick is used yes, but I have heard of people usng grenades to do it too, which sounds suicidal to me as chances are you would have missed most of the mines anyway... Sounds like an old wifes tale that one...
Medicoris:
I think it's time I told you all a little bit more about AVLB.
The Cheiftan based vehicle reverses to the edge of the gap and then releases it's load in a sissor like action. Modern equivalents can do this in around 5 mins i think.
Alternativly the AVLB will send out a long rail across the gap. This allows a bridge to slide underneath the rail.Then the TBT (Tank Bridge Transporter) delievers the bridge, which they are connected to the rail and fitted into place. I cannot find any vids or pics for you but will keep trying!
The CHARRV (Challenger Armoured Repair Recovery Vehicle). It has two winches and a crane, plus space for spare parts. It also has a dozer at the front that is used to dig into the ground and steady the vehicle when lifting. It also can dig out vehicles, dig emplacments etc etc.
The Idea of having a vehicle recovery mechanic to collect a vehicle and bring it back to SHOP seems really good. I do agree!
I then proceeded to think that "How could we fit all these diffrent parts of engineering into the game?"
Then I thought maybe the engineer wouuld be map specific... For example, a map that depends on armour could use a Vehicle recovery engineer. A map that depends on infantry battles could use a 33 Engineer Regiment EOD squad. Or a mobile bridging unit on specific maps... If we make it so that engineers can utilise map specific vehicles, then the engineer could become one of the most fun classes to use ingame.
Edit: The closest I could find to images was from this site. This makes it easier to see what is happening when bridging: http://www.alvisvickers.co.uk/brochure/bridging.pdf
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Medicoris
- Posts: 48
- Joined: 2005-07-17 18:38
Ah, excellent. As I said, I'm pretty naive as far as it comes to most foreign land weapon systems in general, unfortunately.
As you suggested, maps specific to armor vehicles was my initial thought as well. The CHARRV sounds very similar to the M88A2 HERCULES to which I was speaking earlier. The Chieftan also sounds quite similar to the M60 AVLB. I do believe there are already replacements underway for the M60 AVLB, called the Wolverine. Not sure if you're familar with it or not.
I'll have to think of some more ideas in the morning, it's 4AM here, so..
As you suggested, maps specific to armor vehicles was my initial thought as well. The CHARRV sounds very similar to the M88A2 HERCULES to which I was speaking earlier. The Chieftan also sounds quite similar to the M60 AVLB. I do believe there are already replacements underway for the M60 AVLB, called the Wolverine. Not sure if you're familar with it or not.
I'll have to think of some more ideas in the morning, it's 4AM here, so..