teamwork / vehicle lock debate

[fuzzhead]

@determined:

you made a couple interesting points, so i will go through these.

- boats - more than likely will get locked as soon as we get different boat models, or if we can put a countries flag on the boat clearly marked.

- grey vehicle problem - easiest way to fix this is locking the vehicles. the devs have tried many different approaches, with no luck. this is the easiest way to get rid of a really bad vanilla problem.

- realism - you need to provide HARD evidence in the case of push start ignition in ALL humvee variants, vodniks, nanjings, etc... simply saying, well i think they are push ignition, take my word for it, does VERY little to help persuade anyone. Giving a SOLID link to FACTS (ie NOT a wikipedia) is very useful way to press your argument. The main point of realism I was trying to make, is regardless of whether ALL these vehicles have pushstart ignition or some other locking mechanism to keep out trespassers. My realism standpoint is that simply IRL you dont see the extremely high amount of cross-team useage of vehicles that is rampant in PR/BF2. The players are gonna do what is easiest, and if you can take an enemy car, that is the easiest thing to do, and is done frequently. Where in real life a squad would not simply be like 'Wow that was intense, we just shot that car up and killed its whole crew. Now there is blood and guys everywhere inside the vehicle, the transmission is probably shot, and our air support is coming in to bomb the whole area. Hey I got a great idea! Everyone hop in the bloody car and lets take it for a cruise!' yea.... riiiggghhhhhhhtt.

and now to your main point,
- its bad gameplay because you cant get in an enemy vehicle and you have to walk for any length of distance: This argument I think shows the fundamental level of how your playing PR, and that is to say, I think its less than optimal. In my mind, PR is about a slower paced game, a more tactical game, where you arent firing your weapon every 10 seconds. It requires more than just quick shooting '1337' skills. It requires navigation, coordination, communication, the skills that DO NOT become apparent in a super lightning quick gameplay setting where you have access to vehicles CONSTANTLY. These skillsets attract mature gamers, gamers who have a deeper appreciation for military simulation. If you want to constantly be shooting, killing, driving, running, diving, etc, I dont think PR is headed in the right direction for you. I believe the way PR is headed is to combine the whole aspect of combat, including: a chain of command system, the logistics of vehicles and their worth, formations of movement, ambush tactics, defensive patrolling, combined arms assaults using coordination amougst ground and air units, navigation of the land, using geographic features to your tactical advantage, and overcoming the enemy through wit, firepower, and a bit of luck.


Im willing to debate this further with you Determined, and dont take my R-DEV status into this debate because this is not me speaking on behalf of the PR team this is just me speaking from my personal view.

Yes, everyone has a point where things become 'too realistic'. There is a fine line. The question is, is your line sooner than the majority that play PR? And does PR want to cater to the lowest common denominator? I guess that has yet to be determined.

[dhimmi]

Where in real life a squad would not simply be like 'Wow that was intense, we just shot that car up and killed its whole crew. Now there is blood and guys everywhere inside the vehicle, the transmission is probably shot, and our air support is coming in to bomb the whole area. Hey I got a great idea! Everyone hop in the bloody car and lets take it for a cruise!' yea.... riiiggghhhhhhhtt.

I do not mean to be disrespectful to Determined but that is just funny.

It really doesn't take that long to walk anywhere even on the largest map so vehicles are not that important.

[=NAA=Spaztik_Ferret]

I find it easier to walk from place to place anyhow... in most cases vehicles are "kill me beacons" anyways. Especially if you have an entire squad in one. At least if you travel on foot there is a good chance of taking fewer casualties in comparison to a lone SRAW or RPG taking you all out with one shot. Even armor can be dealt with easier on foot in typical PR terrains. Not only that, the casualty rate is further decreased if a medic can reach you after the encounter....you cannot be revived if you die in a vehicle.

I find the transport vehicles useful for about the first 2 minutes of the game, that's about it.

[Figisaacnewton]

with the removal of team indicators (a long over due step), using the other teams vehicles generally results in your death anyways, because your team doesnt know your on thier side, and half the enemy team knows you stole that vehicle, as they either saw you steal it or are watching you drive it the WRONG way.

[Hx.Clavdivs]

I was playing mao valley yesterday and I was launching M203's from bravo to blackhawk wreck (I got like 8 kills ) I got shot, went into the bunker and did "Q > Need a Medic!" I was so freaking surprised when I saw 3 medics run into the bunker at the same time with there med packs out!!!!!

I guess they where just as fracking surprised that the wounded soldier actually took cover and then asked for some healin n' lovin. Usually we find them standing in the middle of the road and firing at anything that moves, even their own. And let's not forget the best part, bitching about the lack of medics.

[.:iGi:. Greg]

Yeah, usually you see someone asking for a medic, run to him then try and guide him to a safe spot for healing, but the guy is still standing out in the open asking for a medic.

[Determined]

Fuzzhead

Hummers ARE pushbutton. I have never driven a vodnik. Though I am sure someone here would have that info on the way one is started. Tactically speaking it would be stupid to require keys. That just leads to dead soldiers when you can't find the keys to get a damn vehicle started.

I would not get in a friendly jeeep that just had the **** shot out of it, why would I get into an enemy jeep in the same condition? That was a poor analogy.

The issue of MY play style keeps being brought up. My issue has nothing to do with teamwork, my play style, how fast I can frag or anythign like that. It is what makes sense. It makes sense to utilize the equipment at hand. You can pick up an enemy's kit right? You can use a mounted gun in a bunker in enemy territory? My argument is that it makes sense to utilize simple equipment that require low levels of skill. Things like firing a foreign firearm, or operating a simple vehicle or mounted weapon. People took my statements and turned me into a vanilla noob. Perhaps I didn't explain my point very well.

[Wasteland]

I know, I'll run out *with* my medic bag, and get close enough to start healing him, then slowly back away toward cover, spamming "Follow Me!"

It still won't work half the time.

But what I *really* hate, is when you rez somebody, and they stay where they are in the path of fire, even though you ran to cover to heal them up. Or worse, you rez them and they sprint away from you, not waiting to at least get healed enough to stop the bleeding. Because you know that they're going to start coughing and tripping soon, and *then* they are going to want you to heal them. Only then they won't be able to cover you while your medic bag's out. When that happens, I usually just say "screw it. I'm not his *****."

[Determined]

got to admit thats another point, by the very reason people are claiming vehicles should be locked boats should too and there is no argument you can say to counter that if you want vehicles locked.

and ghost train is a dam walking mod map, who ever said its only small were you playing 16 player or something?!?

edit: i dont really see the medic issue that much, it just depends where your playing and on what server. generally the city maps are no-medic affairs because half the team is m4, and its suicide to stop prone and zap most of the time.

You couldn't be more right about Ghost train. China has only two spawn points. Neither of which are anywhere near anything. Very rarely does the round extend past a ping pong of who can cap the opposing teams bridge flag. 9 times out of 10 it becomes a boring stalemate in the center of the map. Both teams line the river and just snipe back and forth. Since there are no flags near the river to gain a foot hold it just ends up being a lot of walking to do nothing. There is a helipad at the china base, but no chopper. There are maps that you could play a couple of rounds of, this is not one of them. You suffer through one and you start finding another server, if you play it at all. Whenever I see this map load I watch the player count drop. It could use some tweaking. Though putting the spawn points right at the bridge is not the answer that would only create more of a stalemate.

[Wasteland]

You walk a fine line between realism, and annoying. Walking for 5 minutes, getting killed, waiting 30 seconds, walking 5 minutes, getting tked, waiting 31 secoinds. It's not fun.

Being able to use an empty jeep has zero to do with teamwork. Sitting in the middle of the desert with nothing within 500 meters of you but sand is not fun. Walking forever is not fun. If you like it so much make a mod where you do nothing but walk. Yes you have to hump at times, but on a huge map with 64 people, flags with no spawn points, and 2 jeeps, you ahve to walk too much.

I think this was the problem. Because those of us that we *know* use teamwork (I've never seen you play, but I have seen fuzz, myself, and MadTommy, and we definately use teamwork) don't seem to run into this problem of constantly walking.

[Wasteland]

And your most recent comment about OGT confirms it. I love OGT. Most players I've talked to do as well. You just have to have a decent squad leader who is willing to hang back to provide a spawn point. And in 0.5 with rally points, this will be even more of a non-issue.

If you're just fighting over the bridge, you're missing out. I cross that bridge when the other side is already our's, and that's it. Other than that I use the foot bridge to the East (usually as Chinese) or as Brits I swim across to the West and provide a spawn on top of that mountain overlooking south bridge.

[Determined]

I know, I'll run out *with* my medic bag, and get close enough to start healing him, then slowly back away toward cover, spamming "Follow Me!"

It still won't work half the time.

But what I *really* hate, is when you rez somebody, and they stay where they are in the path of fire, even though you ran to cover to heal them up. Or worse, you rez them and they sprint away from you, not waiting to at least get healed enough to stop the bleeding. Because you know that they're going to start coughing and tripping soon, and *then* they are going to want you to heal them. Only then they won't be able to cover you while your medic bag's out. When that happens, I usually just say "screw it. I'm not his *****."

Maybe its the BF2 in me, but I will go out of my way to raise a dead soldier. Yeah you may be 50 meters from me around a corner, but why not? I just get upset when I drop dead 20 feet from a medic and he just stays hidden. That is part of the job. I'm a medic in the Army and can tell you that. At times you do have to put yourself in the line of fire. Granted it's a judgement call, and some peoples judgement is better than others.

[Wasteland]

Oh, I'll pop smoke and *revive them*. But when they're perfectly able to move, I'm not going to stand out in the middle of the crossfire like an idiot with my medic bag out when there's perfectly good cover to be had.

[BirdShot]

I know what you mean - I got tk'd by a guy because apparently he didn't realize I could heal him if he just jumped in my vehicle. The prick nuked the hummer I was in. I kept yelling "get in" but dipshit decided to AT me instead...

Fucking people.

BS

[Determined]

I know what you mean - I got tk'd by a guy because apparently he didn't realize I could heal him if he just jumped in my vehicle. The prick nuked the hummer I was in. I kept yelling "get in" but dipshit decided to AT me instead...

Fucking people.

BS

lol it must be my luck because those are the kinda teamates I always get stuck with.

[MMad]

You can't play the "reality" card only when it suites you.

Sure they can. Noone has ever claimed PR is all about realism. It's about making BF2 more realistic, but gameplay considerations must, naturally, always be allowed to limit the degree of realism in the game. And just as naturally, the judgement of where to draw the line belongs to the devs. So yes, they can and should play the "reality card", as you put it, only when it suits their wishes for the game.

What is not real about commanding simple vehicles?

The unrealistic and immersion-breaking element is that rediculously often, insurgents and chinese soldiers will be cruising around in humvees, forcing non-US soldiers to hold their fire and wait for visual confirmation of the occupants when they see a humvee closing in on them. THAT is unrealistic, immersion-breaking and simply silly. If you're lying in an ambush as an RPG-armed insurgent and a humvee comes down the street, you shouldn't have to hesitate before firing. In real life, the risk of friendly fire in such a situation would be insanely small (are there statistics of instances of mid-battle car theft by insurgents in Iraq? ). Having cars team locked will, I feel, make your split-second decisions when faced with an enemy vehicle refreshingly straightforward.

On the other hand, I can see locked cars being a significant gameplay problem, one I'm not at all sure I'll be happy about, but it definately isn't a realism problem. I just hope they'll have time to add more cars to the maps.

got to admit thats another point, by the very reason people are claiming vehicles should be locked boats should too and there is no argument you can say to counter that if you want vehicles locked.

It's much, much easier to identify the nationality of soldiers in a boat, so I don't think it would make that big of a difference either way. In any case, the reason it can't really be done atm is that there's only one boat model.

[Wasteland]

forcing non-US soldiers to hold their fire and wait for visual confirmation of the occupants when they see a humvee closing in on them.

Have you actually been doing that dude? Waiting until you can see the driver's uniform and cheesy MEC moustache? Wow. Let me introduce you to something called "Q-click"....