Assault Rifles are still TOO accurate:)

Rico11b · Post by **Rico11b** » 2007-02-21 19:07

Hi all,

I've finally had a chance to log some serious hours with the new PR mod. And I gotta say it is really awesome. It still needs some tweaking I know, but I've seen that the DEVs are working hard on it. I just noticed a poll about 0.5 AR recoil Balancing so I wanted to start a thread to give my opinion on Assault rifle accuracy in game. IMO I feel that the Assault rifles in game are still a bit too accurate. We all must remember that none of these assault rifles are "MATCH GRADE" so the best they will do would be something between 2 to 4 minutes of angle. With 4 being closer to the norm than 2. Meaning 2 to 4 inch shot groups at 100 meters. They also are NOT using "MATCH GRADE" ammo. Soooo how is it even possible to out snipe a sniper with an assault rifle. In reality sure it miiiiiight be possible, but NOT by the average soldier. (I highly doubt it's able to happen, but anything is possible right.) And only very rarely would that happen. None of the weapons modeled in game are "MATCH GRADE", EXCEPT for the sniper rifles and their ammo. Even the best out of the box M16 rifles used by the military are only capable of producing 2 to 3 minutes of angle. And that is in the hands of an expert marksman under ideal range conditions. Also that same marksman is not under combat conditions, meaning he doesn't have bullets flying at his head, and grenades going off around him. So he can take all the time he needs to fire a shot if he wants.

Most bolt action hunting rifle makers only state 1.5 minutes of angle on there rifles, (that's not even a guarantee) and the run of the mill "NON-MATCH GRADE" M16 rifles can't even get close to that. I'm using the M16 in my writing here cause it's deemed the most accurate assault rifle in the game, so you know all the other rifles are in worse shape. Oh I almost forgot to mention that most of these rifles modeled in game take an awful lot of abuse. While I was in the Military I had to have 3 M16s replaced simply because they couldn't take the constant abuse. A lot of guys in my unit went thru M16s like butter, just cause they are so rough on them. One guy even fell on his and it snapped in half like a toy. It doesn't take a lot of time to where out a good rifle if you training hard. Most combat support units don’t go to the field nearly as much as a Light Infantry or even a Mech Infantry unit. So their weapons may last years, and years. When you train hard stuff breaks, that just how it is. When the real fighting starts stuff wears out even quicker. Train hard fight easy. Anyway that my spill sorry for being long winded

Later
R

Spectre · Post by **Spectre** » 2007-02-21 19:15

It is Project Reality... but it's still a game. There's no need to make them so "real" that they break. It is a game, and that's quite probably the most important factor. Many players (me!) left vBF2 to get away from inaccurate weapons.

Now, while I understand your point, and agree that some weapons possibly could be modelled more accurate than others, I'd just hate to see them degrade the accuracy of everything else just to achieve that ideal. For me, I'd like to see them kept at full accuracy.

Rico11b · Post by **Rico11b** » 2007-02-21 19:22

Spectre wrote:It is Project Reality... but it's still a game. There's no need to make them so "real" that they break. It is a game, and that's quite probably the most important factor. Many players (me!) left vBF2 to get away from inaccurate weapons.

Now, while I understand your point, and agree that some weapons possibly could be modelled more accurate than others, I'd just hate to see them degrade the accuracy of everything else just to achieve that ideal. For me, I'd like to see them kept at full accuracy.

It would be funny to have a weapon break in game wouldn't. Maybe they could add weapon jamming in the next release

Hehehe...

SGT.Collado · Post by **SGT.Collado** » 2007-02-21 19:24

Yeah it's fine the way it is. The M4 is PERFECT. 2 shots from the M4 will take down a bird without ever looking back. You have to remember this is still a game and not every dot has to be perfect.

Rico11b · Post by **Rico11b** » 2007-02-21 19:32

SGT.Collado wrote:Yeah it's fine the way it is. The M4 is PERFECT. 2 shots from the M4 will take down a bird without ever looking back. You have to remember this is still a game and not every dot has to be perfect.

Yes every dot does have to be perfect. It's Project "REALITY". Let's make it so. Lol...

The M4 especially is still too accurate. Recoil does work much better than before, like it's supposed to be. I used it this morning, and it is still stupid easy to get kills at any range. And yes I out sniped a sniper with it this morning on more than one attempt. And more than one sniper.

::Major_Baker:: · Post by **::Major_Baker::** » 2007-02-21 19:34

rico11b wrote:It would be funny to have a weapon break in game wouldn't. Maybe they could add weapon jamming in the next release Hehehe...

For the noobs that use full auto constantly! this would be cool!

SGT.Collado · Post by **SGT.Collado** » 2007-02-21 19:35

rico11b wrote:Yes every dot does have to be perfect. It's Project "REALITY". Let's make it so. Lol...

The M4 especially is still too accurate. Recoil does work much better than before, like it's supposed to be. I used it this morning, and it is still stupid easy to get kills at any range. And yes I out sniped a sniper with it this morning on more than one attempt. And more than one sniper.

have u played Americas Army? The M4 for AA is just about the same as P.R. And that game is made by the guys at the Army so it's 99% realistic.

Ugly Duck · Post by **Ugly Duck** » 2007-02-21 19:46

SGT.Collado wrote:have u played Americas Army? The M4 for AA is just about the same as P.R. And that game is made by the guys at the Army so it's 99% realistic.

Not the fact that you can hear someone pull a grenade pin after you've been around people firing AKs and M4s in a hospital.

Rico11b · Post by **Rico11b** » 2007-02-21 19:50

SGT.Collado wrote:have u played Americas Army? The M4 for AA is just about the same as P.R. And that game is made by the guys at the Army so it's 99% realistic.

Oh yeah. I used to play AA all the time. I haven't played since the latest update came out. The M4 is "perceived" to be more accurate. But it’s not really so. By using a scope on one and open sights on another it give the "impression" that the M4 is more accurate. I you added that same scope to the M16, you will find that it is the more accurate and powerful of the 2 rifles. Now I am referring to NON-MATCH GRADE weapons. MATCH GRADE rifle are much more accurate than Non match grade. Most civilians that have fired a privately owned M4 clone where firing MATCH GRADE weapons. Then they start to think that all M4s are that accurate. Those match grade rifles are very expensive, and good old Uncle Sam ain't spending that kind of dough for a knucklehead like me to get a match grade rifle and have it ruined by the end of a 45 day FTX.

Rico11b · Post by **Rico11b** » 2007-02-21 19:52

Ugly Duck wrote:Not the fact that you can hear someone pull a grenade pin after you've been around people firing AKs and M4s in a hospital.

Yeah I forgot about that. lol... There's a lot of unrealistic stuff that happens on that game. But AA is still cool in my book.

SGT.Collado · Post by **SGT.Collado** » 2007-02-21 19:54

The M16 is definitely more accurate than the M4.

Ironcomatose · Post by **Ironcomatose** » 2007-02-21 19:56

AA has weapon jamming and its a free game. You guys should check it out its a fun game.

Smitty4212 · Post by **Smitty4212** » 2007-02-21 20:03

Rifle accuracy is fine in my opinion. If the MOA is 2-4 inches at 100 meters, that sounds relatively close to what it is in game. I've lined up perfect shots on people not moving at 150 meters and missed, so it seems that there is some deviation at least.

Tralle · Post by **Tralle** » 2007-02-21 20:33

I think the british rifleman is a bit to accurate... when you play as brit you dont want to have the DM rifle... i zooms a bit more but have way less ammo... so you are actually better of with your rifleman gun...

Post by **RikiRude** » 2007-02-21 20:56

I think it's fine the way it is. Plus I think if we changed it our community would beat us up =P

Determined · Post by **Determined** » 2007-02-21 21:18

rico11b wrote:Hi all,

I've finally had a chance to log some serious hours with the new PR mod. And I gotta say it is really awesome. It still needs some tweaking I know, but I've seen that the DEVs are working hard on it. I just noticed a poll about 0.5 AR recoil Balancing so I wanted to start a thread to give my opinion on Assault rifle accuracy in game. IMO I feel that the Assault rifles in game are still a bit too accurate. We all must remember that none of these assault rifles are "MATCH GRADE" so the best they will do would be something between 2 to 4 minutes of angle. With 4 being closer to the norm than 2. Meaning 2 to 4 inch shot groups at 100 meters. They also are NOT using "MATCH GRADE" ammo. Soooo how is it even possible to out snipe a sniper with an assault rifle. In reality sure it miiiiiight be possible, but NOT by the average soldier. (I highly doubt it's able to happen, but anything is possible right.) And only very rarely would that happen. None of the weapons modeled in game are "MATCH GRADE", EXCEPT for the sniper rifles and their ammo. Even the best out of the box M16 rifles used by the military are only capable of producing 2 to 3 minutes of angle. And that is in the hands of an expert marksman under ideal range conditions. Also that same marksman is not under combat conditions, meaning he doesn't have bullets flying at his head, and grenades going off around him. So he can take all the time he needs to fire a shot if he wants.

Most bolt action hunting rifle makers only state 1.5 minutes of angle on there rifles, (that's not even a guarantee) and the run of the mill "NON-MATCH GRADE" M16 rifles can't even get close to that. I'm using the M16 in my writing here cause it's deemed the most accurate assault rifle in the game, so you know all the other rifles are in worse shape. Oh I almost forgot to mention that most of these rifles modeled in game take an awful lot of abuse. While I was in the Military I had to have 3 M16s replaced simply because they couldn't take the constant abuse. A lot of guys in my unit went thru M16s like butter, just cause they are so rough on them. One guy even fell on his and it snapped in half like a toy. It doesn't take a lot of time to where out a good rifle if you training hard. Most combat support units don’t go to the field nearly as much as a Light Infantry or even a Mech Infantry unit. So their weapons may last years, and years. When you train hard stuff breaks, that just how it is. When the real fighting starts stuff wears out even quicker. Train hard fight easy. Anyway that my spill sorry for being long winded

Later
R

Didn't read your whole post,but I have to say I disagree with you. Look at it this way, at what distance is the guy with the assault rifle outsniping the sniper? Take Mao Valley for instance. Look at how far you can actually see. How many meters? 300? 400? Anybody that has been to the range can tell you how easy an experienced shooter (this game is obviously representing trained soldiers) can hit 300 meter targets effectively. In this game snipers while useful can not be accurately portrayed because of short viewable distances. Snipers are not being killed by soldiers 700 meters away. They are being killed by soldiers usually within 300 meters, because that is the viewable distance. Whether it be because of fog, or obstructions not very much is outside of the basic assault rifles range in BF2.

Rico11b · Post by **Rico11b** » 2007-02-21 21:55

Determined wrote:Didn't read your whole post,but I have to say I disagree with you. Look at it this way, at what distance is the guy with the assault rifle outsniping the sniper? Take Mao Valley for instance. Look at how far you can actually see. How many meters? 300? 400? Anybody that has been to the range can tell you how easy an experienced shooter (this game is obviously representing trained soldiers) can hit 300 meter targets effectively. In this game snipers while useful can not be accurately portrayed because of short viewable distances. Snipers are not being killed by soldiers 700 meters away. They are being killed by soldiers usually within 300 meters, because that is the viewable distance. Whether it be because of fog, or obstructions not very much is outside of the basic assault rifles range in BF2.

Why didn't you read the whole post

How you gonna disagree if you didn't read the whole thing

Hehehe... j/k.

I myself have out sniped snipers this morning, and just last night. On more than one attempt on more than one server. We both are in prone position, and only the tops of their heads were visible. my whole head and shoulders were visible. Or at least that's what they were saying. We traded shots and I came out the winner each time. I did this to more than one sniper. I was in a squad yesterday and the day before, when others were saying the same kinds of things. While it is really COOL to out shoot a sniper in game, it's not very realistic for sure.

You are correct in stating that the fog limits the distance of engagement. Snipers always try to maintain a "Ballistic Advantage" over their targets. It's unwise for snipers to engage targets within 400 meters because you lose the Ballistic Advantage. Most troops just can't shoot well enough under pressure to engage targets beyond 300 to 400 meters. It's best to stay outside the effective range of an assault rifle, that way you can get the shot off without being targeted or hit. Then you displace to a new hide. There's a lot more to it than that, but I won't go into it.
Still even in the game I should not be able to WIN a one on one shoot out against snipers time and time again. Also I presented a larger target to him then he did to me so he should have won the match hands down. I understand it's possible that all of the snipers I was engaging just plain sucked, but I've seen it happen enough to rule that out I think. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve been owned my snipers plenty of times. Hell I’ve even had the sniper kit and been taken down by super accurate rifle fire. So I’ve been on both sides of this coin

Determined · Post by **Determined** » 2007-02-21 22:00

I want a screen shot of you shooting a sniper over 400 meters away. If you hit him before he hit you, he has bad aim or you were closer than you thought. Most maps you can't see far enough for your rifle to be innefective.

TogetherWe'reInvincible · Post by **TogetherWe'reInvincible** » 2007-02-21 22:03

I think a solution to counter the accuracy of the rifles is to have every sight in game have a switching delay, just like the support guns.
That would be like real life.

EPatrick · Post by **EPatrick** » 2007-02-21 22:04

SGT.Collado wrote:so it's 99% realistic.

Bullll shittt!