Lock on warnings, are they Reality?

[Liquid_Cow]

Determined, you're right about the "power" of the insurgents in Basrah. But that power imbalance (vs. the real world) has more to do with some of those general sacrifices of reality made for better game play:
The ability to respawn,
A nearly limitless supply of ammo
Moveable spawn points
No civilians (which might actually help the US).
Also note that the intro the the map states that there are some remaining army units that joined the insurgents, which would give them a big power boost.

There is one more key element which upsets the US domination of this map, and that's team work.

IRL insugents do not coordinate the way we can in the game. Their best communications are usually jammed near US units. They operate in squad sized units with limited coordiantion and almost never with an organized assault planned, and almost always in suicidal missions. If Al Queda could get 32 men to work together and offer a coordinated assault at the "Green Zone" they would do a hell of a lot of damage before the US could react, and probably get away if that was their intention.

IRL the US would have much better coordination than most of the teams I've seen here. I've said it before, if the US got its act together they would walk from one end of the map to another. The tanks protect the infantry, the cobras protect the tanks, the A-10's protect everybody, and the infantry manuver and assault the targets.

There would be a dedicated Air to Ground communication channel with FAC's calling in airstrikes. All the armor could talk to each other, even if from different units (squads). There would not be units disobeying the commander's orders. Artillery does not stop shooting after 6 shots unless that's all that is called for. UAV's would give the commander real time video feeds.

In short, in this game the US acts more like the insurgents really do and the insugents act more like Americans do.

[Ugly Duck]

Liquid cow > SA-7.

Does that revenge thing work the same way for helos? IE if a helo is hovering back from the enemy facing them would the SA-7 work?

[causticbeat]

yeah i think the 'give them a shitload of flares and remove the lock on tone' is the best idea...

[Liquid_Cow]

Honestly I don't know what the answer is IRL, however as an educated guess I would say yes and no. A chopper is a much slower target, so that would lead to a larger shot envelope, however when hovering the down wash of the rotors would make the heat signature more diffuse which would lead to poor lock-on and a tendency for the missle to miss low.

Also all medium and large US choppers are equiped with active IR counter measures designed to fool passive homing heat seekers.



Most US choppers have some version of this device, however given recent news from Iraq, it would appear that they may not be working as effectively as one would hope, (though there still no hard evidence that SA7's were used, just rumors).

If you watch the first Chechnia video, you'll see that the SA7 gunner really takes his time, passing on several choppers before tagging one at near maximum range. My guess is that he was having a hard time getting a lock on and/or knew that he needed to have just the perfect shot to make it work.

[Guerra]

Wow, Demio is Public Relations? Hilarious.

That reminds me of Jayne on the TV show Firefly. "Whats his job?" ... "Public Relations".

If you ask me, I'd leave AA as is, but simply make it so it you have to land a jet to repair it.

[Demio]

Guerra, please stay on topic. If you have any complaints about me feel free to PM an R-MOD or R-DEV.

And after playing 6h on Basrah I have come to the conclusion that the tone is pretty pointless. I was flying my AH-1Z and kept being locked on but didn't fly away. I just stood there hovering and releasing flares. Eventually one missile was fired and missed. Then my gunner proceeded to obliterate the insurgent.

So yes, no tone must come, and when it comes, realistic flares must come too. That way the only dead pilot will be a bad pilot (which shouldn't be flying anyway), or a really unlucky pilot .

[Hides-His-Eyes]

one of two possibilities would happen with the removing of the lock tone.

one- no one would fly... why risk it?

or two- Since there's no lock tone, people who ARE flying, won't bug out as often.

I admit that once i start hearing something tracking me, i bug out of the area, check for damage and then work on tracking the site down.

Without a tone, that tank/infantry/plane/helo that I was about to toast would be dead.

Good; pilots would start to be the ones who could handle it, not everybody (including guys that don't even know about warm up times)

[Teek]

IMO, Final lock tone or tone after the missile is fired would be better.
less expected by Aircraft= more kills and bugging out by aircraft
more kills and bugging out by aircraft = more fear
more fear = more realistic flying
Realism = good

[Smitty4212]

I'm in support or more flares and no lock tone.

On a map like Al Basrah, since that seems to be the example everyone is using...

Helos would have to stay far away, or be VERY careful about approaching the city, which would tilt the battle to the insurgents favor inside the tight streets and alleys of the city, which is how it should be (relative to air power, that is). While the fighting is outside the city, the helos could devastate, but after that...



Also, one thing that I've learned to do with grails, that now makes me LOVE chopper pilots who just pop flares and hover... there's a certain technique (basically exploiting the bugs that the SA-7 has) that will have the SA-7 fly nearly perfectly straight regardless of flares or lock tone, and you can really mess up a cobra's day when they decide to just sit there above a target

[Teek]

Also, one thing that I've learned to do with grails, that now makes me LOVE chopper pilots who just pop flares and hover... there's a certain technique (basically exploiting the bugs that the SA-7 has) that will have the SA-7 fly nearly perfectly straight regardless of flares or lock tone, and you can really mess up a cobra's day when they decide to just sit there above a target

NICE!!

[Liquid_Cow]

Perhaps there is a middle ground. There are systems which detects a SAM launch via IR signature (heat plume of the missle). Since PRM takes place in the "near future" all US aircraft have had this system installed. You cannot detect the tracking/lock on, but once the missle is in the air you get a warning tone.

To balance it out, there needs to be a delay in the launch of the SA7 (which IRL there is, the missle needs to spool up its gyro and seaker) much like the heavy AT missle now has.

This firing delay helps balance the shortened ranges inhearent to the game but still give the pilot time to react.

[Teek]

thats what i suggested, so I agree fully

[Silens.Intro]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=cBMxcLRCOsQ
&
http://youtube.com/watch?v=KBJ8e_IVOO0
As far as I know the time from acquisition to fire is 5-10 seconds.
You can hear the high pitched whir before the launch of the rocket. I'm not sure if this is the spool that you speak of (I'm not to educated on personnel portable surface to air rockets), if that's not what it is, can you tell me what it is? (I'd like to know out of curiosity, I'm not challenging your knowledge)

[bosco_]

That should be enough of the terrorist propaganda for now.

[General_J0k3r]

I have no idea why you post. You just killed yourself with your own first point. If the game was about realism US would pwn these other factions hands down.

sry, have to comment this. course, US kill loads of people for one of them dead, but real success in fighting the insurgency neither in iraq nor in afghanistan. the soldiers show hell of a performance id say (apart from that torture shit, get mature biatchez) but theres LOADS of insurgents...

[Liquid_Cow]

can you tell me what it is?

I don't know, but I suspect it has to do with the chemical battery an SA7 uses, possibly coolant for the seeker head (which is cooled by liquid nitrogen from the disposable battery) out gassing?

[ReadMenace]

I assumed that horrible noise was the rocket ignition... My ears hurt...

[Argentinedude]

SykloAG']Does anyone know of American aircraft downed by an SA-7 or variant thereof?

The dude does have a point though - infrared/heat-seeking launchers are not detectable to produce a warning for the target. Neither does a tank pointing its turret at another tank make it go "beep beep".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBMxcLRCOsQ