Flying the Cobra with the 0.509 patch and AA

[[-=IDSF=-]SykloAG]

So far, I have only enjoyed the new server-side patch (especially the removal of the officer-kit request delay). However, I have noticed (unless I am missing something), that utilizing the Cobra as standoff weapon or the A-10 on Al-Basrah as a bomber, is somewhat off.

1. There is no way to escape the wrath of an SA-7 without using flares or risking a crash (i.e, diving below roof-tops).
2. Al-basrah is in a *desert*. It is hot in a desert, right? So if I take my cobra down really low, then the heat-seeking warhead should have a tough time locking on, wouldn't you say?
3. Flares should be popped almost constantly during operation over a hot-zone. That is the way the Israel Air Force operates (I don't know about others). What is the nonsense of waiting ages for flares to re-load?
4. The warhead of an SA-7 is a HE fragmentation (containing 0.37 Kg HE) with contact and graze fuzing. Now such a warhead could inflict serious damage on a Cobra or other aircraft, but to insta-kill or disintegrate the target upon contact? I don't think so.
5. Before the server patch, getting hit by an SA-7 meant taking serious damage and flying back to base. Now, chances are you will have to eject (if you get the opportunity).
6. The GRAIL re-spawns really quick for the insurgents. That means that if a Cobra successfully locates and takes out the insurgent who had it, someone else can run back to industry or wherever and get another one. One would think that a GRAIL would be more of a cherished commodity amongst terrorists.

Anyway, my point is that flying in Al-Basrah has been nerfed to a silly level. The insurgents should FEAR US air-support, not be emboldened against it.

[Cerberus]

Agreed.

[eggman]

The only thing I agree with is #6 and #4.

#2 is an engine limitation tho I can think of some odd hacked ways to simulate that (but they might not work).

#3 we are going to look at flare systems and try and model them more accurately in v0.6.

wrt #4 we need to tweak the damage such that an attack helicopter struck with an AA round *might* make it back to base with a good pilot.

So far most of the aircraft casualties I have seen on Al Basrah are A-10s hitting buildings.

When I see 2 man Cobra's being operated at a stand off distance they are very powerful. But once things move into the city, they are not as powerful because they simply can't stand off at a safe enough distance to be effective.

That all seems to be a step in the right direction wrt realistic usage & strengths / weaknesses of the assets.

[gandhicakes]

2. I thought that YES the desert is warm, but don't warheads seek engine signatures not just heat signatures?

[eggman]

the engine signature *is* the heat signature it is seeking.

[[-=IDSF=-]SykloAG]

eggman - Sure, people crashing into buildings and trees is most common. Also, I ALWAYS try to use the Cobra at a stand-off distance. But that does not help much when there is a grail at every corner of the city.

gandhicakes - Eggman beat me too it, but some more info:

The SA-7 GRAIL infrared seeker head, although fitted with a filter to reduce vulnerability against IR decoys is not all that reliable. It "seeks" contrasting heat sources. So the lower the contrast, the less chance it has homing in. Flying low should mix things up even more.

Anyways, regarding it's effectiveness (From Military Factory):

The weapon maintains a hit percentage of roughly 90%, though the HE (High Explosive) warhead is said to not accomplish much in the way of overall damage - as proven in some instances where damaged Israeli fighters were able to return to friendly airbases after receiving a direct hits from enemy ground personnel during the Arab-Israeli War of 1973.

Nevertheless, the system can still be considered deadly in the event that critical systems are destroyed or damaged - in an aircraft that could be the cockpit, avionics or engine components and in rotary aircraft, that could be the cockpit, the tail rotor assembly or main rotor assembly. In any event, the use of the SA-7 Grail is even the most basically-trained of hands should still be regarded as a potential enemy threat to aircraft.

eggman - You edited your post. Ok. Might make it back... I think that that is the way it was b4 the patch - with the tail rotor out (and violent shaking), only decent pilots could land for repairs.

[eggman]

SykloAG']eggman - You edited your post. Ok. Might make it back... I think that that is the way it was b4 the patch - with the tail rotor out (and violent shaking), only decent pilots could land for repairs.

yeah rgr, I re-read your post hehe.

But yeah .. tail rotor out on a single hit would be the sweet spot.

[lonelyjew]

From how you describe the Sa-7 I think it's great as is. Though I imagine that Blackhawks could manage to shrug of a hit or two from an Sa-7 and still be able to limp home I don't imagine the same for the Cobra. The things is so compact that the odds of a critical system not being hit are very unlikely. I haven't had the chance to fly recently but really, a hit from an Sa-7 should result in an emergency landing. I think to counter this though, you are right about the flairs. flairs should be like ammo and usable whenever so long as there are flairs remaining.

[SteelRainFilms]

Well typically in my squad, when I'm squad leader, I'll always make sure someone has an SA-7, and just the "lock on" process seems to scare away the Cobra's, let alone firing. So I'll normally tell my squad mate who has the SA-7, not to fire it, just lock on & the sound itself drivers Cobra's crazy & they always fly away.

I have found that the amount of time it takes a Cobra's flares to reload, compared to the time it takes an SA-7 to re-lock onto a Cobra after it's flares were deployed, is the same amount of time it takes a Cobra's flares to reload & deploy a second time.

Thus if you just hover & continue popping flares, the SA-7 will never get a lock on you. I used this strategy when I flew with Maistro's & we never died from an SA-7.

[Wasteland]

I don't know what you're talking about. The SA7 is very weak compared to air. Still. It takes more than one shot to kill any aircraft with the SA7, so the helo/A-10 can RTB. Also, the SA7 is still buggy in it's lock on. It often will just fly straight and not at what you're aiming at, even if you follow all the workarounds.

There's only two in the map, so it's not "at every corner of the city".

I think it's fine as is. The Cobra should be at the corner of the city. If you get a lock on, start flying away, low, and pop flares a second or so after lock on is complete. Then don't go back to that part of the city.

You'll be back on track to you 100-0 KDRs in no time.

[[-=IDSF=-]SykloAG]

The things is so compact that the odds of a critical system not being hit are very unlikely. I haven't had the chance to fly recently but really, a hit from an Sa-7 should result in an emergency landing.

Right now however, it seems an SA-7 hit results in mid-air disintegration/crash on the spot which is totally unrealistic. We are talking about < 0.5 - 2kg of HE fragmentation, meaning that there is no damage focus (its not a flechette) and a large percentage (most likely most) of the energy is wasted.

So it just depends *where* the SA-7 hits. Since it homes on in the engine exhaust, most likely the area round the engines would be hit. I guess the only way to find out is research actual SA-7 vs. Cobra or comparable incidents.

Of course, since the warhead is contact/graze triggered, any part of the heli that it makes contact with first would get the brunt of the blast. I wonder what that would do to a cockpit...

Anyways, some more research back from 1989
MAN PORTABLE SURFACE-AIR MISSILES
The Afghan conflict saw the SA-7 in use again when CIA and Arab nation supplied missiles used by Mujahedeen successfully destroyed several helicopters and transports. The Russians responded by dropping flares and fitting IR suppressors to helo exhausts countering the SA-7s simple seeker.

Defensive Measures

Defeating the man portable SAM will in most instances require a combination of manoeuvre and countermeasures. The diversity of guidance techniques and missile aerodynamic performance to be countered will rule out any simple strategy. The first aspect of defense is knowing that a missile has been launched at you. Lookout is therefore essential although a beam or tail aspect shot may not be sighted. It is therefore desirable that fixed wing aircraft and helicopters carry IR detection equipment (eg Cincinnati AAR-44) which can detect and track the missiles exhaust plume, very hot with high energy propellants, providing audible and azimuth warning to the pilot. This may be the only warning available of an optical/IR missile launch.

Once the missile is detected and its plume sighted the best combination of measures is the dropping of flares to seduce a heatseeker or at least degrade its seeker performance while entering a hard break turn to attain beam aspect relative to the inbound missile. This manoeuvre will force the missile to sustain a high turn rate which may in itself defeat the weapon, it may stall its controls or fall out of control. At least this manoeuvre will slow the weapon down due to the drag induced by the body lift used to turn the missile. This is desirable as the propellant will burn out very quickly and the less energy (speed/altitude) the missile has the less likely it is to get you.

Helicopters and transports do not have this option and are certain kills if not equipped with IR exhaust radiation suppressors and suitable IR jammers. Exhaust suppressors mix cold air into the exhaust plume to cool it down while also preventing direct IR radiation from the turbine hot end. While flares are often carried by transports and helos second generation heat seeking SAMs are certain to reject them and jammers are a must.

An IR jammer such as the Northrop AAQ-4, AAQ-8, MIRTS or Loral Matador will typically pulse an IR source at such a rate that it will interfere with the seeker/reticle scan of a heatseeking missile. The effectiveness will depend upon the knowledge of the missile to be countered, like all jammers it must be threat specific to be really effective. An aircraft or helo venturing over unsanitised territory would therefore preferably carry a suite including an IR launch warning receiver, suitable IR jammers and a flare dispenser.

Penetration should be at very low level to provide terrain masking or where the situation permits well above 10,000 ft so as to stretch the threat performance envelope to the limit.

Jammers and expendables should be tied into the warning receivers to provide automatic dispensing and emission upon detection of a launch. Given the possibility of manportable SAMs being deployed in the immediate vicinity of friendly landing zones or air strips it is almost mandatory that a 3 n.mi. area beyond either threshold be cleared or at least protected from intruders. On climbout at full power and low airspeed a transport is a textbook target for a heatseeker.

[[-=IDSF=-]SykloAG]

There's only two in the map, so it's not "at every corner of the city".

Yes. Fine. Not four corners. Two corners then. But that still covers every access point if positioned correctly (north and south).

And it is not weak compared to air with the new patch. I was flying an a10 fresh from spawn over the city at ~100m@700km/h and all of a sudden I had disintegrated.

[wooly-back-jack]

boo hoo I got shot with an SA-7 in my Cobra fix it so I can pwn!

Cobras are bloody hard enough to get rid of as it is. The good Cobra teams like duck and M stay up in the sky nearly all round whenever Ive played with them/against them.
Ive actually been that miffed by cobras Ive tried everything lol, sit in an AA position in the middle of nowhere where the Cobra avoids anyway, or the A10 takes it out, or have a nice leisurely jog to industry to find that the SA-7 is gone.
But whoever has it must be cack because I hardly ever see Cobras dropping.

Heres a question, you know when an insurgent takes an m95 off the enemy sniper and another one spawns? what if the US take our SA-7 kit? do they respawn like the M95?

[Demio]

Stop whining.

I was flying the cobra yesterday and I was constantly locked on but never shot down. Just get your flare timings right. If you only release flares after they actually lock on (when it goes from beep-beep-beep to beeeeeeeeeeep) then you won't be shot down. The grail takes AGES to lock on, and by the time they lock onto you again you have new flares.

lern2fly

[Gecko1969]

I am usually running around with the SA7 when air support gets too thick and especially when they get bold and fly slow and lazy or hover close by. I rarely see Cobras at stand off distances. Most I can see the passengers when I fire.

That said I have never taken down a fresh Cobra with one hit. I don't count panicked pilots losing control and crashing either. What does happen is the Cobra is so intent on whatever it is shooting at and racking up kills they don't see the technical and the LMGs that are pegging them. That is when I get kills is when the Cobra has been riddled with medium size arms or my favorite is to hang out near and AA gun and soften them up then pop em with the missile.

I'd rather see some way of punishing **** A10 pilots who crash in to AA guns just to kill you. The QM should ban them for 20 minutes for that.

[Guerra]

2 AA kits against 2 A10s, 2 cobras, and several blackhawks is not a fair fight.

I'm a pilot and I still think that AA is pathetic at best. Just adjust your flying style.

[[-=IDSF=-]SykloAG]

From the majority of responses I see that AA is seen to be just fine. Maybe I need a better gunner/pilot or have had 2 much bad luck or I suck. Kind of odd though about the A-10 I flew that blew up instantly 100m over the city or the countless cobras that turned to dust from something or other.

Before the patch I could keep a Cobra up the entire round. Now I can still do that, but I'll give my gunner motion sickness or he won't see anything because of the LOD optimizations/clipping cuttoffs/fog. Sure in RL I could sit just outside the battlefield and pick of targets. But in RL there is no viewport clipping.

When I take a Cobra and pilot I rarely shoot at anything. I let the gunner handle that. It reduces the chance of hitting some model that decides to fully-compose from 10 triangles into 1000 all of a sudden with some tall part sticking up.

So any suggestions from the superior flyers out there?

[Lucid Nightmare]

You probably got tag teamed by two grail's working in unison.

[Sneak Attack]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBJ8e_IVOO0

that MI-24 is about 1000000000x tougher then a cobra, and that SA-7 took it down quick.


edit: watch your language sneak.

duke

[Viper5]

About 50% of the time 1 Grail is at the hidden undeground ammo dump NW of Facility. Just strafe that and you'll almost always get a kill o 2

Part of being a succesful pilot is knowing where enemys usually position themselves then hit those positions.