Bomber strike as alternative to arty

Post by **CodeRedFox** » 2007-03-07 02:24

I would love to see a single bomb air support. Or the soflam working.

suburban · Post by **suburban** » 2007-03-07 03:42

As much as I would like to see a B52 or less likely a B2 scream overhead dropping a series of GBUs I don't see it happening, limitations aside.

First the planes likely to give CAS on either side would be the F15E or SU33/34 respectively. They can respond much faster than the former planes.

Given that most maps are played in heavy urban enviroments you will not see this kind of air support because the collateral damage would be massive.

And before you say it, yes the A10 is out of place in Al Basrah. It even says in the mission brief that civilians are still present inside the city but are told not to leave their homes ect ect. Dropping 500 pound bombs-dumb bombs at that-would be extremely risky.

MrD · Post by **MrD** » 2007-03-07 11:14

Talked to an arty officer yesterday, single strikes from fighter/bombers on the 2kx2k terrain the game currently sees is fully acceptable with regard to safety for allied troops.

he was on an exercise the day before where he was guiding in Hawks, Tornados and F15's onto targets on the battlefield by line of sight (no Soflam for certain aicraft, they aren't all X Wing fighters!)

r3st · Post by **r3st** » 2007-03-07 11:20

suburban wrote:Given that most maps are played in heavy urban enviroments you will not see this kind of air support because the collateral damage would be massive.

hi

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7fe11b15a9
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fe36d173ea
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b06_1172824109

KP · Post by KP » 2007-03-07 11:30

All right, to sum up: We would all like to see more flashy arty, airstrikes etc., but the Devs say it's hardcoded.

But what about it is hardcoded? POE2 got smoke screen arty, didn't they? So there is room for some change. Any Devs out there who can answer this?

Jedimushroom · Post by **Jedimushroom** » 2007-03-07 16:34

One word : Napalm

MrD · Post by **MrD** » 2007-03-07 17:10

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b06_1172824109

okay, 2mins into that one theres some very useful fighter/bomber single bomb action to support small arms exchange in a built up area.

Shafty · Post by **Shafty** » 2007-03-07 18:14

Popa wrote:Bombers are not used as CAS. Something like an A-10 would be used to support infantry. If you called a B-52 in for CAS you'd have to be like 2 miles away from the target.

.

Unfortunatley you do not know what you are talking about. B-52s were used for CAS constantly in A-Stan.

Using JDAMs, B-52s were crucial for the CAS used by our special forces.

suburban · Post by **suburban** » 2007-03-07 20:52

r3st wrote:hi

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7fe11b15a9
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fe36d173ea
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b06_1172824109

Every one of these were single guided bombs. Not 2-5 bombs dropped dumb or 2 dropped dumb in sucession of 30mm and rocket fire.

And none of them were in heavily popuated areas like the heart of Al Basrah.

Wasteland · Post by **Wasteland** » 2007-03-07 22:49

That last one was a good video.

Liquid_Cow · Post by **Liquid_Cow** » 2007-03-07 23:15

IMHO one of the real weaknesses of the BF2 flight sim is the lack of a Point of Impact (CPI) indicator in the HUD. Anyone who's flown a "real" flight sim (or real bomber) will be familiar with these, its a display that shows the point where your bomb or gun will impact the ground if you pull the trigger right then in the HUD. The calculations for this display is made by the plane's computer and takes in account IAS, angle of attack, attitude, altitude, range, bomb type, yadda yadda, and makes it so accurate that even a "dumb" 500lbs can be put into a 5ft circle (provided there's no major defect with the bomb).

With BF2 you have to guess where the bomb will land which makes it very innacurate, inconsistant, and dangerous to provide true CAS near friendlies. Lack of visual range prohibits steep high altitude dives from being effective.

If there was any way to improve the bomb sights it would mean CAS aircraft could be used as they are in "reality."

MrD, contrary to what CNN would have you believe, a lot of CAS is provided with "dumb" bombs. According to globalsecurities.com, a Mk82 500lbs bomb cost $268.50 ea. A GBU-12 (same 500lbs bomb with a laser guidance unit on it) cost $19,000. You just can't afford to drop LGB's all day long.

Wasteland · Post by **Wasteland** » 2007-03-07 23:21

5 feet? I can't imagine, given that you can't acount for wind. But still... were there a way to impliment this in PR, I'd say it would be great.

The A-10 has something like that, though it's just an estimation as it's fixed and therefore won't account for speed or angle. But nevertheless, it's the only bomber in the entire BF series + PR + DC that I've been able to use effectively.

Liquid_Cow · Post by **Liquid_Cow** » 2007-03-08 04:09

JP*wasteland.soldier wrote:5 feet? I can't imagine, given that you can't acount for wind...

The A-10 has something like that, though it's just an estimation as it's fixed and therefore won't account for speed or angle...

Opps, I should have said 5 meters, but...

Actually you can account for wind. By compairing INS, GPS, RADAR/Laser, and other sensor feedback you can calculate for wind.

The orriginal A-10 had a fixed targeting system where the pilot had to manually enter all the variables to adjust the aim point of the HUD, but the Warthog was upgraded with LASTE (Low Altitude Safety and Targeting Enhancement system) after the First Gulf War which provides give the pilot a CIP (Computed Impact Point) on his HUD that is automatically calculated. If you watch the video of the friendly fire incident vs. the British convoy, you'll see the CIP show up as a circle with an X inside of it as they roll in on the convoy.

The limits of modern free fall bomb accuracy is the bomb itself. I used to work in Marine Corp aviation where we prided our ability to provide CAS right on top of our own guy, so accuracy is king. The saying was that a Vietnam era A-6 could drop a 500lbs bomb in a pickle barrel. An F/A-18 could drop it in a pickle jar. True, highly variable wind conditions will hurt your accuracy, but then we don't bomb in tornadoes very often, and wind is remarkable consistant until you get down to the last 50ft or so of altitude. Modern attack aircraft can fly themsleves onto the target and release the bomb (the pilot acts as a safety device to stop the bombing by releasing the trigger, but its the plane that decides to drop the bomb). In this mode the plane is much more accurate than the bomb is, but at the end of the run, the CEP (circular error probablility) of the drop is much smaller than the blast radius of the bomb. End result, bad guy dead more often than not.

There is always the chance of getting a flyer. A slightly bent tail fin or a weak squib charge will throw the bomb significantly off course. Without an internal course correction guidance unit the bomb becomes a liability. Due to this concern you'll find that CAS in an urban enviroment where blowing up the neighborhood Mosque is bad for PR you will always see the good stuff (JDAM or LGB) being used.

r3st · Post by **r3st** » 2007-03-08 05:02

suburban wrote:Every one of these were single guided bombs. Not 2-5 bombs dropped dumb or 2 dropped dumb in sucession of 30mm and rocket fire.

And none of them were in heavily popuated areas like the heart of Al Basrah.

yes
and thats what I would like to see

ghostguy · Post by **ghostguy** » 2007-03-08 05:41

Just gimme the power to guide in moabs and I'll be happy