Another rant on teamwork and squad leader spawning

[Soulis6]

Hey all, just have to say beforehand that i am still loving PR and really do appreciate all the devs have done.

That being said once again I have, after countless hours of play, examined how the structure of gameplay works in reguards to encouraging tactics and teamwork. I know there are some that would disagree with me, but i think that PR should remove the mechanic of being able to spawn on the squad leader.
This is a good idea in theory but more and more lately, when the one squad is really wanting to win for their team, the squad leader will simply hide somewhere near the flag and let his squadmates just keep respawning on him. Suddenly this squad of trained USMC badasses turn into the Zerg. On some maps like jabal or al basrah this isnt as much of an issue as there are not as many places to hide and plenty of space away from flags to place rally points. But on others it can be damn near impossible to find these squad leaders.

Not only can this be very frustrating trying to deal with a squad leader hiding, but it encourages the squad leader to simply camp and ignore truly leading his squad. I enjoy being a squad leader on those occasions where i am able to use my mic, and i have a number of times had my squad get mad at me because i was actually participating in the fight instead of lying down somewhere nearby to hide. I dont know about anyone else but i dont feel much like im leading my squad if im hiding while my squad fights. I just feel like a rally point.

This is of course related to rally points and how they are being placed, but i have already gone on on length about those, so hopefully the devs will change the way rally points work. Once that happens this will only magnify this odd behaivor of squad leaders simply acting as mobile spawn points.


I wont rant much more on the topic but i think it would be an improvment in gameplay and teamwork if squad members were only able to spawn on their leaders when the leader is within a certain radius of a friendly flag (something maybe around 50m?). This way capturing flags would hold a little more meaning then they currently do as you would be able to replenish your squad at a flag if you had to retreat from an attack, or after successfully capturing a flag.
Again I appreciate any feedback, be it from dedicated PR player or dev. Thanks in advance.

[suburban]

My solution to this problem involves severals shot into said squad leader.

Tactics have their place. Fight or flight, to shoot or not to shoot. Sometimes it is better for a squad leader to lay low in an extremely hot situation as opposed to running in with a rifle and praying to Allah that he dosen't die.

The way I see it the SL should never be direclty admist the fight. The SL is better suited toward being a scout bringing up the rear of a squad. The SL is the most important part of the squad and never should be in more danger than the situation requires. Not saying he shouldn't fight but I am saying that rushing in without some sort of plan is not what a SL should do.

Removing SL spawning will effectively kill about seventy percent of squad cohesion. If a SL has to move the whole squad back to the rally point every time he needs to regroup a few of his members he is risking his entire squad being wiped out because he has given up his position.

I do agree that simply hiding is not exactly in the best interst of the team but removing the SL spawn has some serious flaws.

[r3st]

EDITLOL

[coolhand]

I always fight as a SL - unless, and only unless if my whole squad asks me not to, to make sure they have a mobile spawnpoint. Otherwise, if they dont care, I will go on and fight with them. I of course fight from the rear but I' like being in the frontlines.

I play in Devfile a lot with my brother and so far, all the people that's joined are square are excellent teamplayers. They are very observant, they obey orders and know how to think for themselves. I can't remember their names, but yes - I have found LOTS and LOTS of great teamplayers. However, this standly mostly true only whe Im insurgent. Seems the US are too busy waiting for their hardware to spawn to really have an effective squad. The only squads I notice being serious in USMC are the ones dedicated to using Armor.

[Soulis6]

I think i've actually been in your squad before suburban. good times.

Im not saying that the squad leader should go running into a fight, but the way it is right now, it IS in the best intrest of the team to get to a position near an enemy flag and just hide. That way his whole squad can use him as a rally point.
I understand what you mean by killing squad cohesion, but as it is right now, when you have a good squad that follows your orders, they will regroup with you wherever necessary. If you dont have a squad willing to work together they will spawn on you just to run off by themselves anyway. 90% of the time when i get in a squad where there is teamwork going on, they are awsome about it and really stick to the leaders commands. Besides half the point of rally points is a place for the squad to get together and get organized.

If you could only spawn on the squad leader near friendly flags then it would alleviate any of my worries, as this is only an issue when your squad is near an enemy flag or behind enemy lines.

[Fenix16]

Its great fun hiding near flags/ infiltrating the other teams main to take out assets, only hard part is finding squad members who understand the that pulling the trigger on every enemy they encounter isnt always the best way to accomplish the squads objectives.

[causticbeat]

without squadlead spawning, squad cohesion is almost non existant.

squad cohesion (squads sticking togehter) is bad enough now with the small map sizes/rally points. once we see the 4km2 maps in play i think it will be better, you will be more seperated so there will be less deaths

[suburban]

I think i've actually been in your squad before suburban. good times.

Thanks. It's good to see someone that doesn't think I'm a moron.

I do like to lead squads but I'm not afraid to die. I see the squad leader as a means to keep your squad together as opposed to a rally point. I don't want to discredit your idea. What I am saying to argue it is that I want to keep the squad moving as a unit and pushing forward or defending much as possible without having to move back at all. I try to avoid backtracking because that means you lose valuable ground.

I will agree that a decent squad should be able regroup without spawn points because that has happened before many times. Whether it be sending my AT alone to destroy a tank or sending my Spec to hunt down a RP alone I will wait for him to arrive or tell him to meet the squad somewhere.

But my biggest fear with this idea, which I hinted at before, is that the whole team-not just the squad-will lose their winning momentum if this idea is implemented.

[Croix]

I always fight as a SL - unless, and only unless if my whole squad asks me not to, to make sure they have a mobile spawnpoint. Otherwise, if they dont care, I will go on and fight with them. I of course fight from the rear but I' like being in the frontlines.

I play in Devfile a lot with my brother and so far, all the people that's joined are square are excellent teamplayers. They are very observant, they obey orders and know how to think for themselves. I can't remember their names, but yes - I have found LOTS and LOTS of great teamplayers. However, this standly mostly true only whe Im insurgent. Seems the US are too busy waiting for their hardware to spawn to really have an effective squad. The only squads I notice being serious in USMC are the ones dedicated to using Armor.

Coolhand, I love playing with you. This is Newdaze from HLF by the way

I think I've seen you in Devfile but had totally forgotten you played PR.

[Soulis6]

I agree with you Suburban about wanting to keep the squads together and
not backtracking, i just cant shake off this feeling i get whenever im a squad leader, behind enemy lines or near a hotly contested flag, that by hiding and just letting my squad respawn on me endlessly, im somehow exploiting the system. Or whenever i see another squad do it for that matter. Pretty much what Fenix is talking about . It feels cheap and gamey to me but i guess thats something that isn't likely to change.

The only other thing i can think of that might work is: what if your squad can't spawn on you in you are within say 75m of an enemy or contested flag? That way there would be no backtracking and your squad could respawn in full after the flag is taken. Might work. might not.

But perhaps Causticbeat is right. Maybe when the new huge maps are released this wont really be an issue.

[eggman]

It's not just a map size issue, but also a CP congestion issue. Most maps have too many CPs, making it difficult to set a rally point. Originally we intended to remove SL spawning and replace it with rally points, but that immediately proved very problematic in testing.

We have some changes to RPs coming in v0.6 to address the gameyness factor as well as some other elements of the spawn system redesign coming into play.

And we're going to gut some CPs from maps to give a lot more room for manouvre & tactics.

[Determined]

Hey all, just have to say beforehand that i am still loving PR and really do appreciate all the devs have done.

That being said once again I have, after countless hours of play, examined how the structure of gameplay works in reguards to encouraging tactics and teamwork. I know there are some that would disagree with me, but i think that PR should remove the mechanic of being able to spawn on the squad leader.
This is a good idea in theory but more and more lately, when the one squad is really wanting to win for their team, the squad leader will simply hide somewhere near the flag and let his squadmates just keep respawning on him. Suddenly this squad of trained USMC badasses turn into the Zerg. On some maps like jabal or al basrah this isnt as much of an issue as there are not as many places to hide and plenty of space away from flags to place rally points. But on others it can be damn near impossible to find these squad leaders.

Not only can this be very frustrating trying to deal with a squad leader hiding, but it encourages the squad leader to simply camp and ignore truly leading his squad. I enjoy being a squad leader on those occasions where i am able to use my mic, and i have a number of times had my squad get mad at me because i was actually participating in the fight instead of lying down somewhere nearby to hide. I dont know about anyone else but i dont feel much like im leading my squad if im hiding while my squad fights. I just feel like a rally point.

This is of course related to rally points and how they are being placed, but i have already gone on on length about those, so hopefully the devs will change the way rally points work. Once that happens this will only magnify this odd behaivor of squad leaders simply acting as mobile spawn points.


I wont rant much more on the topic but i think it would be an improvment in gameplay and teamwork if squad members were only able to spawn on their leaders when the leader is within a certain radius of a friendly flag (something maybe around 50m?). This way capturing flags would hold a little more meaning then they currently do as you would be able to replenish your squad at a flag if you had to retreat from an attack, or after successfully capturing a flag.
Again I appreciate any feedback, be it from dedicated PR player or dev. Thanks in advance.

The average dead soldier takes 45 seconds (give or take a few) to respawn. That is hardly zerglike. Now insurgents on the otherhand... lol The insurgents are set up that way by design to simulate them having more numbers in those urban environments.

Hunting down a squad leader is not some impossible task.