Growing trend in PR Servers since .05

[maxnik]

This is my last post in this thread.
I find this bashing of servers like OSF server offensive and wouldn't mind if the thread were locked up and deleted.
Otherwise I would like Developers to come to OSF forum and tell our members that our server with the current settings is not appreciated by the Developers. And that we are noobs and not worthy playing this mod.
We do not try to dictate how people should create the games or how people should run their servers or which server to play on...

[Master Shake]

"So then along comes 12 year old jimmy who is a really big fan of running around with a grenade launcher and seeing how many kills he can get in a row. Hes getting bored with BF2, and finds this mod called PR something... its got some new guns and its really easy to kill people now! He joins the server with most people, and happily spams away..."

Since everyone is playing "together" using "tactics" little Jimmy shouldn't last 5 minutes in PR??

Or does "using tacticts" mean is this game more about staying alive than killing the enemy and winning the territory?

I am a long time BF player, and the crew I play with regularly causes havoc in any map we play in against anyone we have played, in any version of battlefield, mod or otherwise were usually the 1# squad on our team and sometimes when were all in we run two squads and finish 1-2 on our team. We probably win the map if I had to guess 75% of the time if the rest of our team does not totally suck, or if the commander is an idiot or busy the commander is playing personal assistant to his clan mates.

Can someone please explain to me what diffrence 15 seconds makes if your using good tactics and team play or if your "little jimmy"??

PR MOD IS GREAT, and players should be fleshed out on the battlefield not in a forum........15 seconds or 30 seconds if your tactics are good, your team is communicating and your a decent player or in a good squad 15-30 seconds should make no diffrence everyone is on an equal battlefield.

I hate the little Jimmys as much as the next guy maybe more......but he will not be a factor at all when we run him over on the battlefield. Thats been the key to sucess of the BF franchise,......the freedom to try anything you can think of and the freedom to stop anything someone else thinks of,...its called war.

[Master Shake]

In all my enthusiams I double posted,....sorry.

[WNxKenwayy]

I just wanna say thx to hauler and others like him that understand where us server admins are coming from in regards to this issue.

I also wanna say thx to those that are putting your points across intelligently and in a respectful manner.

I completely agree with fuzz about the need for a better system with the differentiation between PROS and modded servers. That's what the whole PROS thing was all about. That's why we named the server like we did because we want to be upfront about it. If some newb sees whatever PR PROS and sees =CDU= Short Spawn. Do you honestly think they will believe the =CDU= one is stock? It seems to me that it is pretty obvious our server has a shorter spawn time then the norm just with it's title. Also when you join you get in the welcome message a short lil description of what is different and are told to go to our website for more detailed information.

They might not understand how the game plays out on PROS servers but they should know that obviously we are running shorter spawn times. I constantly hear complaints about how people should read the manual and they should. It wouldn't be a bad thing to add something to the manual specifying what PROS means.

Please don't take this the wrong way but if you really want people to play your mod in only a certain way then don't release it to the public. Just host private tourneys like 21cw did back in the DC days. Then you will only have the purists playing and the server population can drop a little. If you don't mind people playing your mod in a way that best suits them then keep doing what your doing.

Like I said I don't wanna be offensive just making a general statement.

Wrong. They can release the CLIENT to the public all day long so anyone can play. They can/should/hopefully are going to release the SERVER either privately or with restrictions so the public can play all day long by the rules/spirit of the mod.

[Robbeh]

To avoid all the confusion you could try to implement some kind of icon or even just have it in the name to seperate the modded servers from the modded ones...
For example have the unmodded config file show the ranked icon and the modded ones left empty or simply put PURE or FUNSERVER at the front of the servername?

[Threedroogs]

or how about 'Official Settings'

the PROS thing isnt self explainatory. someone who doesnt frequent the forum wouldnt have any idea what it meant.

the labeling needs to be clearer. non-official servers should have to put something to that effect in their server names (or better yet, just deny 'em the server files).

[.:iGi:. Greg]

I really don't understand why people have taken the excellent RealityMod server release and bastardised it to resemble vanilla. Why not just go back to vanilla?

The biggest servers currently, which include Thors and our British and USMC servers all run the correct settings and full length spawn time. They are full all the time. (except when some ******* keeps doing a DDOS attack on our hosts). So hopefully people will get bored with servers running the incorrect settings and come back to the better servers running official settings.

[Losus_Deliosus]

Please be aware people, it is not just those "retarded 'nilla noobie etc etc etc" servers that have modified spawn time. As {GD}Odie has stated our private practice server runs modified spawn times usually for when we are doing some casual practice with ground vehicles and aircrafts. Locking these values would mean if one of our members crashes his/her aircraft lets say, then they would have to wait 5 minutes before they can resume practicing with said aircraft, that is just one example. God forbid they only release server files to approved admins as there is always a chance we might end up with no practice server at all.

[Wasteland]

Yes, I do think there should be a "PURE" and "NERFED" designation on every server. And the "NERFED" designation should be a requirement to change the settings.

I do believe that the nerfed servers hurt the pure gameplay of PR. They attract the wrong kind of player to the mod, and these players then affect both the reputation and the gameplay of the mod. It used to be the case that people would start playing PR, and would be thrust into a sink or swim situation. They'd either embrace the gameplay or leave. This meant that the people looking for a tactical game would be drawn in by that aspect, and then stick around to learn the dynamics of the game.

Now, with the nerfed servers, people stick around because they like to get quicker kills and such. Then they sometimes play on the "pure" servers, and newcomers to the mod (the kind of players we're looking for) find the nerfed servers and are put off by them.

The fact is, PR is like a special interest group. You wouldn't go into the headquarters of a group advocating the legalization of prostitution and tell them that they should also creat the option within their organization of opposing legalized prostitution, on the basis that that's how the majority of the population feel. PR was never meant to cater to the majority. That's what BF2 is for. And people that want something in between should be very happy with PoE.

So originally I thought, "no doubt, PR is made for purists, and so it is their interests that should be taken into account. The nerfed servers hurt purists, and therefore have no place in PR." Unfortunately for some, PR's mission was never to satisfy everybody.

After reading through some of the posts though, my mind changed a bit. Actually it was entirely from reading Junkoe's posts. I figured "here's a guy who just wants to play the game in a way that he and his clanmates like. He's a serious and apparently mature guy who hasn't started flaming despite numerous attacks on his position. I wonder if there's a way that his interests can be accomidated?"

So I figure the best way to do this is to create "PURE" and "NERFED" designations. Some people won't like the negative connotation of "NERFED". But it's important that new players know straight away that this is not how the game is meant to be played, and that the gameplay found on these servers shouldn't affect their opinion of PR as a mod. Hopefully people's egos won't get in the way of seeing why this is necassary.

Also, without question, pure servers are the only ones that should be using ABR. A server called "HIGH SCORING"? Are you kidding? That's like stats padding. Of course stats aren't what we should be aiming for, but when I apply for the commander spot, I don't want to loose out to someone who's played for a fifth the time as I have, but has been running around frag-festing that whole time.

[lonelyjew]

Those short respawn servers are annoying to play on. People don't play carefully and just charge into the fray.

[Wasteland]

Dude. I love your new sig.

[Shooty McStabbyface]

Wow! Touchy subject huh? Didn't know people felt so strongly about this. OK after reading all of this I have come to the same conclusion as JP above me. I think the best solution is a two-fold one.

Firstly, disable ABR for any and all altered PR servers. That should be done as soon as possible. Secondly, do some work with the ABR people and make some new medals and rewards and things. Just assign one or two of your many talented PR devs and I have no doubt they will go above and beyond the call of duty like you guys always seem to do. So like if you were to make some that were like if you lived a certain amount of time while killing the opposition...things like that. Medals that reward playing the game the way it was intended would make the ABR/Pure PR servers more appealing to the little Jimmys and give a reward to those that play the game as it was meant to be played.

The thing about altering these attributes is they are not just random minor settings. They effect every aspect of gameplay. In that we, the WU squad (you know who we are *******), will be setting up a flank, will have setup a spawn, and are creeping up, picking off specific enemies, etc...basic PR tactics really, when charging rambo jackass go storming past us into the fray without caring about death. Getting himself killed and tipping off the direction from which we're coming, etc. It just takes me out of the game and ruins our tactics.

All that being said (phew), ABR/Pure with improvements to ABR being a made a priority alongside non-ranked fragfests will be available to all players. I think this may be the way to go. It is a crucial time for PR right now and there is a lot riding on this decision. PR can very well be a franchise which crosses platforms and games, ultimately leading to a stand alone game called Project Reality with it's own engine. That is where you need to be headed and cutting out all those that like those servers will splinter the community and take you further from that. But, making a game to please the most people as possible will likely lead to garbage. The above fix is what I think should implemented for the time being IMHO...

[=CDU=Munga]

Wrong. They can release the CLIENT to the public all day long so anyone can play. They can/should/hopefully are going to release the SERVER either privately or with restrictions so the public can play all day long by the rules/spirit of the mod.

Um, thats what he said. Its how NAW started until the public demand got high enough to release server files to the public. Then of course it died when it got way to arcade like.

As for letting the public know what they are joining...I think a proper server title is the correct approach. Its not that easy to mod this stuff, and it shouldn't be. I think if you are going to mod something, you need to know what you are doing.

We at =CDU= didn't like BF2, but we also don't have the skills to create a mod like POE or PR. That is why we do SSM on mods to make them play like how we like to play. POE didn;t last long as it we too close to BF2. We vote on what is good and what we dislike. Our DCF serves saw many changes over the last 3 years - from absolute crazy Sandbox style with flying car bombs and dunbuggies type of stuff to more realistic stuff. We would never do that to PR, but we needed something to appeal to our members and PR offers a lot of that.

As for the short spawn changing game play - yeah, unfortunately we do get a fair amount of run and gun without enough real tactics, but thats whats great about our server - when the people who know tatics start ruling the game, the others learn or leave. We also heavilly admin as JP said way earlier so little Jimmy can learn or leave.

And we will never be ABR. Most of us despise what ranking has done to the game. I personally beleive that is why BF2 brought so many cheats and hacks - little Jimmy just wanted the ranks and unlocks...and don't get me started on the unlocks.

Thanks again and Cheers!

[=CDU=Munga]

Oh, and for those who believe that PR should only be played as the devs designed it, then why do you think it is ok for the devs of PR to mod BF2? With that kind of thinking, you should demand the PR devs to design a complete stand alone game on their own engine and everything that goes with that.

If you believe a game should only be played the way it was originally designed then you need to uninstall PR and go back to vBF2 with Amoured F-up and Special Fecies.

The reason we mod a game is so we can make it more suitable to our own tastes. We modded a mod because that is all we are capable of doing to satisfy our needs. Beleive me, if I could make a stand alone game or develope a mod similar to PR, I would - but we work with what we have.

What was it that good ole' Rumsfield said? "You go to war with the army you have, not the army you wish for or wish to have."

[Shooty McStabbyface]

What was it that good ole' Rumsfield said? "You go to war with the army you have, not the army you wish for or wish to have."

Right, but he's an idiot.

[dunkellic]

okay - though i dont like it, i feel it waters down gameplay very much - i have no problem with those servers existing.

i dont know why some people seem to be nearly offended by those servers.

if the people want it, they are gonna play on those servers, if not, those servers won´t get many problems, where´s the problem?

[TheOldDog]

The long spawn time is part of what makes PR better. The tendency to Rambo-rush is decreased with longer spawn. When you wipe out a squad it takes longer for them to get back into fights.

Short spawn time is lame and leaning towards the arcade gameplay style.

You ever play Rainbow Six multiplayer a few years ago? Where you painstakingly shoulder your rifle, take out a grenade, get it ready, throw it, unshoulder your rifle then get it ready again. A game where it took longer to simply get ready to climb a ladder than it actually took to climb it, and when you did it you don’t spring up it like an eight armed monkey?.

The ‘reality’ in that game makes ‘pure’ PR look like an arcade game but I seem to remember it did not have long spawn time (note that I still prefer long spawn servers for PR, but putting such emphasis on short spawn as a game breaker seems over zealous)

There is also this niggling thing that has always disturbed me about spawn time increasing because of death, which I guess is a separate issue from a long fixed spawn time or fixed short spawn.

A map begins. I play the map properly in a pure form from beginning to end. I kill. I die. Then, after more than half the game has passed ‘New Player’ joins the match.

New Player starts with his spawn timer reset to baseline because he has not yet died within the game. Thus he starts at a fairly significant advantage from all the people who have been playing since the round began.

[Hauler]

Nobody pays to play this dumb ***. It not 'their' mod, its the dev teams, and its not a matter of if they have the 'right' to do something, its if they have the ability and desire too, end of story. I agree completely with 99% of the people in this thread that the short spawn time servers are retarded and need to be disabled/banned/not giving server files, whatever. We don't want little jimmy screwing up this mod, and if little jimmy doesn't want to wait then screw him go play something else. He has no 'right' to play this mod, only the ability too, and if he doesn't want too, tough.

In regards to server admins, same thing. They paid money to someone, good for them. They don't want to play by the rules, stop paying. They didn't pay for the mod, they paid for a server, which just so happens to run this mod by their choice. Tough.

Ummmmm yes they do dumbass what do u think servers are free. Dont come and attack people when u dont know what ur talking about. Please refrain from making immature comments cause you can't speak in a civilized tone. Im not taking sides both sides have there rights. I do know that the modded servers will bring the tards in to the game but at the same time the people that own the servers have there right to do as they please cause they....... you want to answer that one smart guy. Yeah people are starting to get belligerent and honestly I don't feel like making this a flame thread please close and lock before people start really attacking people just trying to make sense of both sides.

[TheToecutter]

A map begins. I play the map properly in a pure form from beginning to end. I kill. I die. Then, after more than half the game has passed ‘New Player’ joins the match.

New Player starts with his spawn timer reset to baseline because he has not yet died within the game. Thus he starts at a fairly significant advantage from all the people who have been playing since the round began.

Good point, I never thought of that one. It does kind of create a disadvantage to those that have been playing the whole round.

Someone else made the point as well that we want players to be encouraged to occasionally leave the bunker, and maybe even take point every once in a while...

[eggman]

IMPORTANT:

PLEASE keep the discussion civil! This is an important issue for us as mod developers and as a mod community. Slagging other folks or server admins in the discussion will just cause me to lock the thread.

The problem with modded servers is multiple:
- faction balancing
- play style
- first impressions
+ others

At first I thought "hey cool, some servers for folks to try out". But now... I am sorry folks .. it's outta fraking hand. The majority of public populated servers are running a modded version of the mod. If we had 10,000 players OK fine .. but we don't. We have a limited population and modded servers have become the NORM for populated servers.

So you can say "dont ya get the message eggy? the modded servers are more popular?" BUT.. y'all have to understand that we *never* expected nor wanted PR to be "popular" .. we want it to be good. And after an investment of >10,000 man hours into it we have earned the right to define "good" in this context.

When I join the short spawn servers .. I am sorry to say .. I appreciate and respect some folks desire for different play dynamics .. but generally I find them to be an abortion of the mod we have invested THOUSANDS of hours into developing. Same goes for vehicle timers .. I kill a tank .. that should have a severe impact on the other team. Not when it's respawning in 2 minutes.

==

We are going to do everything we can to work with co-operative server admins to allow *some* variability in server profiles.

So for example we can have:
PROS profile
.. as we shipped it & can be ABR
Recruit profile
.. 20s spawn timer & can NOT be ABR
Recruit w FF mod profile
.. 20s spawn timer & 50% FF & can NOT be ABR

But if the admins are not willing to work with us on getting some defined profiles in place and adhering to them well that will be unfortunate. We'll have to look at some sort of more severe restrictions on the distribution of the server files.

==

If I look at the response to this poll and acknowledge that it's generally just the more hard core folks who respond to these polls (or even read the forums) then I would say there's a possibility that we'll lose as much as 50% of the player population if we enforced more hard core settings.

So be it.