Growing trend in PR Servers since .05

[TheOldDog]

fuzzhead']Its a tough call... all I can say is that overall player quality was a helluva lot better in the earlier releases... not saying short spawn time servers are to blame, but they definitely play a part at 'retaining' these less than ideal players.

I dont call the shots for PR this is just my opinion, but I think something needs to be done to better differentiate the official severs from the goofy ones.

Ehhhh? I have played PR now since early .3 or so, PR has evolved into a much…much deeper game than it was (runs off to grab a crewman kit) with lots MORE people playing it, filling out 64 player servers with ease. The overall player quality you talked about may have existed back in the day but to my mind its more likely that overall player IQ needs to be MUCH higher now than it was back in the day.

Servers are fractured this way because PR is bumping up against the level of maximum common complexity. ‘Pure’ PR would be more stable if the underlying game engine was more squad based (32 players or less). What PR is attempting to do is bring realism to a large battlefield that requires a large number of players to simultaneously rise to the occasion to play it properly… and its getting indigestion because of it.

[General_J0k3r]

yeah. PR IS hardcore in fact. when i first played it, omg. i spawned, orientated (more or less ), ran some minutes, dies, spawned, ran some minutes, died, ran, died, ran... and i waited a looooong time. but that is exactly what makes me adapt my playing style. it's hard to learn, it's difficult, it takes a lot of thinking for a shooter, it's why i like it. and yes, i would have been turned down by the current short spawn server playing style. luckily, i started on iGi.

anyhow, i think the idea with clear labels on modded servers is great. it can give ppl who wanna learn the mod take first steps without the admittedly high level of frustration you have the first hour playing .

[Hauler]

dunkellic']okay - though i dont like it, i feel it waters down gameplay very much - i have no problem with those servers existing.

i dont know why some people seem to be nearly offended by those servers.

if the people want it, they are gonna play on those servers, if not, those servers won´t get many problems, where´s the problem?

Thank you dunk it is that simple people are just trying to make it more complicated cause they are scared something might ruin there gameplay. I mean I was seeing this smacktard stuff in .3 not much but in .4 it got pretty bad at times. Now it is a lot worse but it is up to the faithful community and there servers to make gameplay the way want it for us. The tards can go to the other servers and we can stay and play on ours. I dont understand why people feel we can't coexist? Now if there is cheating all over the place on the reality servers then it is time for a change and I mean 10 fold cheating tking non responsive teams so on so forth.

[TheToecutter]

eggman']If I look at the response to this poll and acknowledge that it's generally just the more hard core folks who respond to these polls (or even read the forums) then I would say there's a possibility that we'll lose as much as 50% of the player population if we enforced more hard core settings.

So be it.

Thanks for a very concise and open response.

I guess my concern, (posssibly others as well), is that if PR doesn't grow it will die. But from your post it doesn't seem like that may be a valid concern. Maybe looking at this the same way as other marketed products is not valid... but do you see a nice long life-span for PR, even if the player base does not expand?

[Wasteland]

eggman']IMPORTANT:
....there's a possibility that we'll lose as much as 50% of the player population if we enforced more hard core settings.

So be it.

Agreed. This is the bottom line. I honestly don't mind if the mod isn't hugely popular. It doesn't need to be. As long as Gloryhoundz is around I'll be happy. And if it can be made so that Gloryhoundz doesn't have a bunch of smacktards, then go for it.

OPB Hauler:

I do know that the modded servers will bring the tards in to the game but at the same time the people that own the servers have there right to do as they please

There's the rub. Servers have the rights the devs give them, just as the devs have the rights EA gives them. The devs put their valuale time into this mod because they had a vision of creating a very fun, but also very tactical game. If they feel that some servers are hindering this, then it is completely within the rights of the devs to do what they wish to rectify the situation.

Also, re: the "PR is a modification of BF2, so why can't we mod PR?" argument:

BF2 is a commercial product. We buy it and it becomes ours. PR is the result of the devs' charity. So we are more indebted to the devs than we are to EA. Furthermore, EA decides what we can and cannot do with the game. The devs can do the same. Finally, a person with BF2 looking for BF2 servers will find only those. They will not find PR servers. A PR player looking for PR servers, however, is faced both with PR servers and with "HIGH SCORING for t3h n00x0rzz" servers.

[=CDU=Jochen_Peiper]

Well said Egg. Sounds like you and the other Devs have some Cud to Chew. (BTW that's not an insult for those of you not blessed to be from the south, but just a colorful southern Colloquialism for "need to do some thinking") Not much more can be added to what has been said. Once again, we at =CDU= are indebted to developers for providing us with a great mod and the information on making the changes we did. You understand where we are and we await to hear your plans.

[{GD}StevenGarcia]

fuzzhead']
Its a tough call... all I can say is that overall player quality was a helluva lot better in the earlier releases... not saying short spawn time servers are to blame, but they definitely play a part at 'retaining' these less than ideal players.

Exactly. Hard code the timers and FF, please. These people are not interested in realism and there are plenty of other games out there for them to enjoy.

[Shooty McStabbyface]

eggman']
The problem with modded servers is multiple:
- faction balancing
- play style
- first impressions
+ others

At first I thought "hey cool, some servers for folks to try out". But now... I am sorry folks .. it's outta fraking hand. The majority of public populated servers are running a modded version of the mod. If we had 10,000 players OK fine .. but we don't. We have a limited population and modded servers have become the NORM for populated servers.

So you can say "dont ya get the message eggy? the modded servers are more popular?" BUT.. y'all have to understand that we *never* expected nor wanted PR to be "popular" .. we want it to be good. And after an investment of >10,000 man hours into it we have earned the right to define "good" in this context.

When I join the short spawn servers .. I am sorry to say .. I appreciate and respect some folks desire for different play dynamics .. but generally I find them to be an abortion of the mod we have invested THOUSANDS of hours into developing. Same goes for vehicle timers .. I kill a tank .. that should have a severe impact on the other team. Not when it's respawning in 2 minutes.

==

We are going to do everything we can to work with co-operative server admins to allow *some* variability in server profiles.

So for example we can have:
PROS profile
.. as we shipped it & can be ABR
Recruit profile
.. 20s spawn timer & can NOT be ABR
Recruit w FF mod profile
.. 20s spawn timer & 50% FF & can NOT be ABR

But if the admins are not willing to work with us on getting some defined profiles in place and adhering to them well that will be unfortunate. We'll have to look at some sort of more severe restrictions on the distribution of the server files.

==

If I look at the response to this poll and acknowledge that it's generally just the more hard core folks who respond to these polls (or even read the forums) then I would say there's a possibility that we'll lose as much as 50% of the player population if we enforced more hard core settings.

So be it.

Perfect. THIS is why I have faith in you guys. You are almost always on the same page as I am. And I am always right.

[eggman]

Thanks for a very concise and open response.

I guess my concern, (posssibly others as well), is that if PR doesn't grow it will die. But from your post it doesn't seem like that may be a valid concern. Maybe looking at this the same way as other marketed products is not valid... but do you see a nice long life-span for PR, even if the player base does not expand?

Hrm.. well if long spawn timers are an indicator of longer attention spans (and I think they are) then I would say that incrementally growing the player base to include folks with an interest in a more thoughtful, tactically oriented play style will still allow the mod to thrive.

By that I mean that if folks are turned off because the respawn timers are too long .. those folks will probably move to another game / mod when it's available.

If we continue to innovate, infuse realism and build stuff that you can't find in other games, then I think we'll continue to attract and retain players. The latter is more important to a game like PR than the former.

With v0.5 we made more of an effort to promote the mod than in any prior release. Of course we want to expand the player population.

BUT what we *intended* is that aspects of the mod would put some players off .. some PLAYERS would change .. some wouldn't .. and that latter group would filter away. And we'd retain some percentage of those players who represented the kind of player we want to retain.

Instead.. what has happened is that the MOD is being changed to retain players and those changes are causing it to be played in ways that do not match up with our design and game play dynamics goals.

[M.J.Patterson]

^^ It's so beautiful...

[Losus_Deliosus]

Exactly. Hard code the timers and FF, please. These people are not interested in realism and there are plenty of other games out there for them to enjoy.

Errrr, Steve, please remember that we use modified spawn timers on our private practice server.

Anyways Eggman (and whoever mentioned the idea too), your server profiles sounds like a good compromise. Also, how about a "Private Practice" profile that would be unrestricted, but CANNOT be ABR and HAS to be password protected. That way we could execute our practice exercises as efficiently as possible with our limited scheduled practice time by being able to adjust the spawn times but at the same time not attract any outside players to the server (except those specifically invited to our practices).

[Killi Vanilli]

So for example we can have:
PROS profile
.. as we shipped it & can be ABR
Recruit profile
.. 20s spawn timer & can NOT be ABR
Recruit w FF mod profile
.. 20s spawn timer & 50% FF & can NOT be ABR

I think that sounds more than fair. Thank you.

[M.J.Patterson]

Errrr, Steve, please remember that we use modified spawn timers on our private practice server.

Anyways Eggman (and whoever mentioned the idea too), your server profiles sounds like a good compromise. Also, how about a "Private Practice" profile that would be unrestricted, but CANNOT be ABR and HAS to be password protected. That way we could execute our practice exercises as efficiently as possible with our limited scheduled practice time by being able to adjust the spawn times but at the same time not attract any outside players to the server (except those specifically invited to our practices).

Its a private server.. I don't know if it would be a problem with privates using non-official settings... dunno how it would be done tho.

[eggman]

Yeah we'll have to think on what we can do so that we are not excluding private servers.

[causticbeat]

After reading this thread, my opinion has been changed. I think that the server files should be made private, BUT as long as a server agrees (written?) to follow a

"PROS profile
.. as we shipped it & can be ABR
Recruit profile
.. 20s spawn timer & can NOT be ABR
Recruit w FF mod profile
.. 20s spawn timer & 50% FF & can NOT be ABR"

profile plan, they are allowed to. As long as the server is CLEARLY defined to be what it is, it shouldnt be an issue. The more people that play these, eventually they may get bored of it and want something more satisfying, and then theres another player on a PROS server who already is more familiar with the main aspects of PR.

Although PR is a small community, server/player wise, there are still enough that you can easily find a game of the style/map you want. whether its a nice small 10v10 or a full 64 player server, chances are you can find somehting good to play.

Unless we get to a point where there are only 3 PROS servers and the rest are modded, I dont think it should be an issue as long as it is a quality server. A shitty server is a shitty server, and even if it is not the server i enjoy, if it is a well upkept server it will still be an experience in which a player will think "hey, this mod is alot better than bf2.The CDU guys seem very mature and very capable server owners. I think they handled this whole thread very well, where they came in and were essentially being attacked by a greater portion of the community, and handled it well.

And as long as they are only modding spawn timers and FF, and maybe to some extent, kits (i mean, there was a time that kits werent limited), it is still PR IMO. They are still following AAS, there are still spawn timer additions for deaths, its still AAS, etc etc and theyre still killing with a few shots.

[00SoldierofFortune00]

I think part of the problem is players. They are the ones condoning this kind of thing when they jump on those servers, and once you stay on it for a while, it will probably catch on. I am not really saying it is their fault though pursay, because if it is there, people will do it. Just like dolphin diving and bunny hopping and you can't stop it.

What people need to do is fill up the good servers that are always empty. Servers such as GloryHoundz, |3-5|, PIT, etc.

Right now, we have three seperate groups playing.

1. The Europeans who probably have the best servers and most PR like. Too bad for us North American players though.(Thors, IGI, etc.)
2. The **** American servers that have completely changed the game's settings to vanilla standards(CDU, War in the Woods, short respawn, etc.)
or have stupid rules(kick script on TG) or go overboard admining(TG)
3. Then you have the good old servers that used to be the backbone of PR but are empty most of the time. (GloryHoundz, PIT, War is Hell, |3-5|)

War is Hell fills up sometimes when people are in for a long time, but why aren't these servers as popular as TG but have the same exact specs, maps, and decent admining?

[=CDU=Napoleon]

BUT.. y'all have to understand that we *never* expected nor wanted PR to be "popular

And after an investment of >10,000 man hours into it we have earned the right to define "good" in this context.

With v0.5 we made more of an effort to promote the mod than in any prior release. Of course we want to expand the player population.

I would say there's a possibility that we'll lose as much as 50% of the player population if we enforced more hard core settings
So be it.

Why would you post this after all the long hrs you guys put into creating,testing,fixing the bugs and then say this. well if ea did not want people to mod there game they would not have released the editor. if i remember correctly when desert combat came out they did not care if people modded it.there were unmodded servers but people got bored with it.we modded it and had a nice flow of traffic. =cdu= has always been about bringing a different experience to the battlefield games.
i would think after all your hard work you would want to draw more and more people to the mod, but i guess not after reading some of your posts.
last time i checked our server is located in the usa. we have the right to do what we want with the box's we pay for.

[bosco_]

You aren't drawing people to the MOD, you are drawing people to your MODDED server.

[M.J.Patterson]

Longer spawn times and FF are an integrated part of the mod. Altering those aspects is "creating" a different mod just as altering the recoil on guns, putting back in commander controlled arty/uav/scan, and nametags seen from a mile away would be.

we have the right to do what we want with the box's we pay for.

You are absolutely right. You have the right to do what you want with the box

[=CDU=Napoleon]

You aren't drawing people to the MOD, you are drawing people to your MODDED server.

u must be missing something. who does not want there servers to be populated. if not why pay for them. so yes we are drawing people to our servers. been doing this since we first modded a desert combat map.

why would u not want to draw people to your mod that u have created and put long hours into doing this????