Growing trend in PR Servers since .05

[Wasteland]

or have stupid rules(kick script on TG) or go overboard admining(TG)

TG is just fine as it is. The entire idea is to enforce chain of command so you don't have retarded squads doing retarded things. I don't see why you're always coming down so hard on it. Unless you mean the kicking for supporting members. In which case I think that's just because you're thinking of it as a "pure pub" server. It's not. It's a semi-private one that allows public players to join in.

[The_motivator]

didn't read all ~12 pages. But one thing that bugs me even in the "good" PRM servers is the setting that some have that visually tracks your killer when you die. I.E. a very well hidden sniper pops you in the head... or you got snuck up on from behind. It tracks them, and when you respawn in 30+ seconds, you have a general, if not very good idea where they are.

Nothing more frustrating than taking out a squad, watching each guy go down clueless as to my position... then after the 45 seconds you get raped by automatic fire from behind.

[bosco_]

why would u want to not draw people to your mod that u have created and put long hours into doing this????

There, You said it yourself, you mod the mod and attract people with that, not with the original mod itsself and it's gameplay.
But nevermind, this discussion could be endless, I'm out.

[Apophis]

Personally, I value any system that places a penality on idiotic behavior. Your soldiers life in game should be more valuable than it is, the spawn timer as it stands now punishes idiotic and suicidal behavior by making your spawn time longer. That's a great thing. I would fully support that being hard-coded into the mod.

[Ghostrider]

First I would like to say that I find it very disturbing how bent outta shape you all are getting over this, sayin us server admins have no right to mod a mod.
Think about that for a second please.

I just thought about it and this is my reply.

Go back to the install screen of the mod and, before clicking the I accept the licence agreement read this part for a sec:

Project Reality is a modification of the retail game Battlefield 2.

All new content related to the Project Reality modification is developed & copywritten by the Project Reality team
([url]https://www.realitymod.com)[/url].
ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.
[...]

That pretty much means that "no", you have no right to Mod a Mod...or at least the Project Reality Mod.

While the devs have done a fantastic job of modding BF2 into an acceptable experience, they also did some things me an lot of my fellow clan members don't enjoy. We at =CDU= always enjoy a hardcore experience, we like things to be hard. That's why we always allow main base camping at anytime and things of that nature.

That's totally fine if you don't enjoy something about our mod...but that does not justify modding it. There're plenty of mods around for you to try, and if not, then you're also free to give modding a shot yourself (and your buddies).

I started playing this mod back in 0.2 something and highly enjoyed the accurate weaponry, but I could never get my friends interested in the mod because they were playin other mods. Well after 0.4 a few of them came around and thats about the same time I generally lost interest in the mod. I understand the kit limiting system and it makes plenty of sense but I still don't generally enjoy it. Asides from that though there were quite a few of my clanmates playin PR at the time and there number one complaint was the wait time in between deaths.

I find it strange that you played the mod since 0.2 and you didn't sign up until now. That aside, the things you bring up are part of the design of the mod. The fact that you may not like it doesn't give you any right or justification to mod it.

So I decided to put up a PR server for 0.5 and I always noticed the realityconfig.py file and was much appreciative of it. Shortly after putting up the new server with only the edited config file it got regular traffic and all of us at =CDU= had a ball playin PR in this configuration.

Shortly thereafter I edited all the maps to make vehicles spawn faster.

This is where the problem comes in. You started to edit a lot of things that are not yours to edit, nor have the rights for. Sure there're some things that can be configured, but editing content is not one of them.

It was never my intention to start a whole new trend or give other admins the idea that a short spawn server was a good thing. I knew when I was putting it up that most of the die hard PR fans would hate the server and everything we stand for. That's fine because I didn't put up the server for them, there are plenty of servers out there like that. I put up a server for people like me an my clan that enjoy the hardcore weaponry that really puts a fire under your *** , and at the same time wants to keep the action fast paced and always constant.

Well, it's your server and we don't mind even if you decide to set up a password and give it to your clan members only. The problem is that within the mindset of "it's our server" comes the erroneous thought of "we can do anything we want with the content we're running on it"...and the content is not yours...only the server is.

I understand your arguments against it and if there is somehow a hardcoded limit on the spawn time then you won't see =CDU= playing PR and you all can rejoice an be happy. At the same time please understand that we love what the mod has done for BF2, we just don't enjoy slow paced games. We like to be in the thick of it at all times.

Don't take it personal. We don't rejoice when people go away from the mod like you may be thinking of...but we also recognize that the design of this mod won't appeal to the masses, meaning that we always know that some people will like it and some people won't.

Also if I could do more server-side I would so at least you stopped me there for now. If I was able to, I would have completely change CP's and spawn points and also add plenty more vehicles that aren't already in a map. I gave up on that for now because I got other SSM stuff that I am working on.

The bottom line is this, if you don't want people playing the game differently from how you intend then don't give us the tools to do so.

Well, what you claim to be "the team giving tools" is an error. The existence of that file (as well as the other ones) is, mainly, to make things easier for ourselves when coding, and to avoid duplicating code, etc...

You can look in the gamemodes folder for regular BF2 and you'll find the code for conquest. Following your logic, that means that EA/DICE provided that for you to edit and mess with...which is not true. Your logic does not hold. I'll even go further as to say that even if you're provided with the tools, if you do NOT have permission to edit this, then you shouldn't. That's what you agree to if you want to install the mod.

I guess I was mistaken about the PR Devs. I always thought they stood by the idea of it's their server, they pay for it, they can enjoy it how they want.

That is true. However, your translation of that statement seems to be "It's their server, they pay for it, they can edit and mod the mod how they want."
As you can see, those are completely different things, and you did the last one I mentioned.

Anyways that's just my reasons for setting up the server like I did, and take it however you want. I know me an my mates are in the minority here in how we like to play PR and if you don't want us around thats your prerogative.

Not wanting you guys around, and not wanting you guys to mess with what you shouldn't be messing with are two different stories. You may be in the minority, but the same things that apply to you guys, the minority, apply to everyone else...so there's no double standard, or personal preference, or any other thing behind it.


-Ghost

[Wolfe]

Agreed, it should be hard coded. Short spawn times cheapen the game and leads to more rambo-style players (and there's nothing worse than killing the same guy 3 times to cap a flag because he respawns so fast). If people want rambo, go buy the movie or play bf2 vanilla. Funny thing is that there are 100x more people playing vanilla. Yesterday I played vanilla for a map or two but it only reminded how entirely mindless it is, yet it's still super popular.

If anything, I would like to see a reduction or removal of the +1sec respawn death penalty. It only discourages poor/average players who have less and less fun while they spend more and more time on the sidelines.

[ArmedDrunk&Angry]

I have to say that CDU makes their point very well and the "pure" PR servers may possibly benefit from their winnowing process.
I don't think so, but it's possible.
The sense of entitlement that people have concerning how a FREE mod will be coded and distributed is absolutely amazing.
You would think that since I play the game I get a say in how it's made.
Well, sorry Charlie ....that ain't the case.
You get what they give you.
I like long spawn but I understand the time pressure many people are under and long spawn breeds slow games which aren't much fun if you only have and hour to play.
I had the idea to lock .6 and then when .7 is released unlock .6 so the short spawn servers can mod it to their hearts delight but the mod is still unaffected.
People do join servers based on population alone and that means when short spawns are full the twitchy gunners come into Al Jabal and try to play CS style with limited resources and that can RUIN the game for the other people on the server.
What disturbs me is this.. flavour of arrogance in the thread… The ‘play it this way or go back to vanilla’ attitude. That attitude does not build a community; it poisons it and leaves it stunted, exclusive and smug.
That is part of what makes the mod attractive, it's selectivity.
Like the SEALs, not everyone will make it because it takes a blend of skills not just fast reflexes.
I like it because I don't have fast reflexes and most often lose in a straight up shoot out.
I flank, I ambush and I use armor, none of which works very well when hyperactive individuals are zooming around destroying limited resources.
PRO and recruit will hopefully be a comprise that suits the most amount of people.


EDIT: RE: poisoned community.
If you have a problem with your game or your computer, some one in the forums will solve it for you. They will spend their time to research a problem you have and send you a list of possible solutions. They will do this even after you viciously attacked their nation in the forums.
I know this because it happened to me.
So I don't see a poisoned community but an open and accepting one, albeit with high standards for gameplay.

[eggman]

Why would you post this after all the long hrs you guys put into creating,testing,fixing the bugs and then say this. well if ea did not want people to mod there game they would not have released the editor. if i remember correctly when desert combat came out they did not care if people modded it.there were unmodded servers but people got bored with it.we modded it and had a nice flow of traffic. =cdu= has always been about bringing a different experience to the battlefield games.
i would think after all your hard work you would want to draw more and more people to the mod, but i guess not after reading some of your posts.
last time i checked our server is located in the usa. we have the right to do what we want with the box's we pay for.

Heh well we never released an Editor for PR

We included some configration files and the ability to edit those. The intent there was that there might be 1 or 2 or 3 servers that wanted to edit the configurations. But right now the degree of edits is altering the dynamics of the game play to the point where I can't tell if player feedback is valid or invalid because of the varying degrees of server configurations.

And the number of servers with those edits is in the majority in the North American servers (not surprising as it is a generally accepted behavioural tendency in the gaming industry that Europeans will tolerate much more "hard core" games than North Americans).

There are design elements that when you alter them to the degree that they have been altered in some cases really affect how the mod plays. One of the reasons for having 0s mandown timers that add 1s spawn for each death WAS to deter players who didn't have the patience and thoughfulness to stick with a squad.

It was our built in filter.. "this mod sucks, spawn times are way too long" .. we don't want those kind of players playing the mod. What we want is for those players to say "feck .. I should stick close to a Medic and my squad so if we get engaged we can return fire en masse and hopefully revive any casualties after we win the fire fight".

The hyperbole about "your box .. in the USA" doesn't add much to the discussion.

[Ghostrider]

First, let me respectfull say that we at =CDU= understand the concern this has raised and your many fine points. We set out to make the experience =CDU=Junkoe described earlier. I won't repeat it. I think our server has a purpose for the PR community as a whole. We introduce more players to your mod than just about any other out there. Daily I am providing new players with instructions on ins ans outs of PR. Yes, some of them are tards and after a short period of time we find that out and we ban them. Many, however would likely not have survived the frustration of 30+ spawn and 30+ spawn, waiting for equipment that never shows up. They are looking for fun and entertainment. We give those players the lure of PR. They get to experience it, albeit not in your pure form, but they get hooked. Agree or not. That is true. Many of them may never "graduate" to play on your pure servers, but some will. I think you have a fantastic Mod and we at =CDU= are your greatest fans. It is yours to do with what you wish. Lock it down, that's your poragative. I think you will be closing off an opportunity to expose your work to an audience that could help it grow.

As you can imagine we ban a few people every night. Our forums are filled with players making the case to return. Some get in, many don't. Many are new to PR who made "mistakes". Some are just tards. We weed them out. What remains are a core of players you can build for. No, we are not purists. Yes, you can make it impossible for short spawn servers to exist. But consider all the angles before you do. We at =CDU= will always respect the developers wishes.

I replied to your buddy, and leaving all the unwanted responses from the community aside, the same argument still stands. However, the approach you guys are taking, IMO, could be some sort of "training server". I say that because the way you describe things seems more like training to me and "graduating" players to go into PR, etc..

Regardless of what you guys choose to do, we respecfully ask that you honor the agreement that you agreed to by installing, and running, the mod in your servers. Correcting this issue, instead of only saying that you aknowledge it, would only be the least you guys can do to show the "respect" that you try to project when posting here. For some of us, actions speak louder than words.

-Ghost

[=CDU=Jochen_Peiper]

First off, you don't have to play on =CDU=. We fully disclose what we are in naming the server 'Short Spawn' and in server messages that point you to forum posts fully describing all that was changed. Changed by the way with the consent and assistance of PR developers. So for those of you who think it's a "**** American server" as Soldier of Fortune suggests, GREAT. I won't have to kick somebody to make room for you. Me and all my mentally impaired, ADD, short attention span neanderthal buddies will be just fine on our own. We are not offering free beer, money or porn. Our server is full because the community is open to it. We don't discriminate.

Yes, the game experience on our server will not be the same as on a pure server. Yes we have changed the game experience. If the developers feel that this reflects poorly on their mod then they will lock it down in the next release, which I guess is 3 to 4 months away. But for now, you "purists" are redesigning the barn door after the horse has already left the barn. Meaning: IT AIN"T GONNA CHANGE ANY TIME SOON. We at =CDU= will continue to run our server as we do. You will run yours as you do and hopefully we all are satisfied by our experience. That's why Baskin Robins has 32 flavors.

I just hope the devs will consider this. On any given night on our server, whether through our public teamspeak or through chat... I help on average 10 new players through basics of PR. We love this mod. We love to have fun with it. We want to share that fun with others. Some of whom will become purists like yourselves. Some never will. How many new players do the pure servers introduce? Some I'm sure. I personally believe community that is "open" is always better than one that is "closed". It's up to you Devs. I would hate to see you waste all the effort it is gonna take to locking down server side mods when that time could be better spent on all the other fantastic ideas you have.

[00SoldierofFortune00]

TG is just fine as it is. The entire idea is to enforce chain of command so you don't have retarded squads doing retarded things. I don't see why you're always coming down so hard on it. Unless you mean the kicking for supporting members. In which case I think that's just because you're thinking of it as a "pure pub" server. It's not. It's a semi-private one that allows public players to join in.

Yea, I am mostly against the server because of the script which is probably the dumbest way to kick someone and has no basis backing it up besides(let new guys play), but that is besides the point. Right now, the only US server that is constantly full is TG, and not everyone likes to or wants to play on there or wants to be in a squad.

Some people don't want to be bothered with the squad thing(I am fine with it, but I don't always want to have to join a squad straight out as others) and just want to run around for a while. Some people like certain maps. Others don't want to be bothered being kicked to only come back to no squad at all, etc.

My point is, that TG pretty much has a monopoly over the US servers right now, and when that happens, it is never good for the community. We need multiple US servers that stick to the basic PR fundimentals, while still switching up things so that the game doesn't get boring and we get different experiences within the correct PR world.

[Hauler]

Cant really get around that copyright. I understand eggman's point and I have been thinking about it for a while now. If I were Eggman and worked hard on a mod and someone came in and modded my mod pretty much without asking I would be kinda of upset too. I feel that they have a very big point in this and I feel Eggman is being more then genorus in allowing some minor type of modding to go on.

The Devs have worked very, very, very hard with no money flow coming in for it. It really isn't right to just come in and make the game u want and have a different breed of player come in. Now I personally really dont give a **** Im always going to be playing on TG and gloryhounds. I love the kick to join sqauds that TG has implemented I think it is great and should be hardcoded. If the game is about realism nobody walks the battlefield alone. I do think both sides have good points but if the game is copywritten and the devs do have rights to it there is really nothing you can do about that. I feel that CDU is going to have to lock up the borders nice and tight as not to allow foul play and let the smacktards roam free if they are given some leeway with the secondary modding. I also feel that all modding needs to be run by the dev team for approval if the marriage is going to last.

Im not taking sides I just want to say my piece and maybe give some clarity to the situation so we dont have world war three here. Anyway thank you Eggman for being so understanding and not stalin and bringing down the red hammer without being fair this is why I came here becuase I find very few fair and just people out there in the gaming community but this is one of the few that has many. I think that this will be beneficial for all sides cause nobody wants to wait 40 seconds all the time so it might be a nice change to spawn a little faster and maybe some of those jimmy's will come around and understand what it takes to be a reality player and join the ranks of the elites and be mentioned with the likes of Fuzz, ATL, Gurra note, and of course me.... J/K. But seriously this could be the begining of something great for both ends. Faithful community players dont rush to conclusion but this might be kinda of cool having the option for a faster paced game and being able to go at the speed we do now. I think there has to be one golden rule and that is DOWN WITH SMACKTARDS WHO ARE OUT TO RUIN THE GAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I feel all sides have to agree to this or there should be no deal. This should be enforced 150%

[Major._Spork]

i am kinda mixed.... i have had it where i spawn.... in a spawn car when i am instantly killed by a USMC guy just camping it..... I can deal with it most of the time but sometimes..... arg.......

but then again i love the long spawn time... it just depends......

pz no hate mail

[=CDU=Junkoe]

I could go on on but I am too lazy for that now.

If you wanna get all technical about it though, I never edited anything an re-released it to the public. I did however edit some files in a server package that had no license agreement.

There was an agreement if I was to install the client and even if you could hold water with that that agreement you only agree upon installation of the client files themselves. I have never edited the client files not once.

Oh and the whole I find it surprising you are just joining now thing, yeah I had another forum name that I used before joining =CDU= it was called -=WSG=-Junkoe I registered that in jun of 06. Aside from that though I guess you must register on forums before playing your mod otherwise you didn't really play it.

I see all your arguements and hey I gave my solution. You could also put a license agreement with the server files if you wanna get all legal about it.

[Hauler]

No need to get mad I think they are being very fair Junkoe. Look at it from Eggmans view he made this from the ground level and your coming along and changing it. I dont care but think about the people who worked hard to get the community where it is today.

[00SoldierofFortune00]

I could go on on bout I am too lazy for that now.

If you wanna get all technical about it though, I never edited anything an re-released it to the public. I did however edit some files in a server package that had no license agreement.

There was an agreement if I was to install the client and even if you could hold water with that that agreement you only agree upon installation of the client files themselves. I have never edited the client files not once.

Oh and the whole I find it surprising you are just joining now thing, yeah I had another forum name that I used before joining =CDU= it was called -=WSG=-Junkoe I registered that in jun of 06. Aside from that though I guess you must register on forums before playing your mod otherwise you didn't really play it.

I see all your arguements and hey I gave my solution. You could also put a license agreement with the server files if you wanna get all legal about it.

He is completely 100% correct here. It is not really modding it if he is only changing the server files which were included in the original game and are for this exact thing. He is also not rereleasing anything, which he is correct on again.

This is why I said that unless something is prevented or hardcoded, it will just be abused or used by the community as bunny-hopping as been or dolphin diving.

No one should blame the guy, but if you want to prevent this kind of thing from happening, hardcoding is the only way.

Though he should gear his server to more where the mod is suppose to be going, this rule cannot be reinforced 100% of the time.

[Doc.Canis]

The longer spawn time is a vital component of PR gameplay. I can't see why anyone could be unable to understand that. I've played for 14 days only and it's clear for me that the spawn time has huge impact on gameplay.

As a new player I also joined some "Short spawn time" servers and it sucked. The mix of Ramboism and Reality was just too lame.

For new people it may give a very wrong impression of PR with those server.

I fully support a hard coding of ALL the vital gameplay components to keep the basic PR gameplay intact across all PR servers.

[Hx.Clavdivs]

I for one, respect =CDU=Jochen_Peiper's opinions. At least he is arguing his point in a respectfull manner and with reasons why. Even if one disagrees the reasons and some even do the "you are gay" but in other words, at least we have communication going. And that is one thing this forum sometimes lack. Communication and different opinions without turning into a total "look at me, I can be a bigger smacktard than the next!" thread.

[Ghostrider]

Oh, and for those who believe that PR should only be played as the devs designed it, then why do you think it is ok for the devs of PR to mod BF2? With that kind of thinking, you should demand the PR devs to design a complete stand alone game on their own engine and everything that goes with that.

If you believe a game should only be played the way it was originally designed then you need to uninstall PR and go back to vBF2 with Amoured F-up and Special Fecies.

The difference between we modding BF2 and you guys modding PRM is that, EA/DICE has officially given support to modding their game, meaning that they allow you within their license to do so. That does not apply to PRM.


-Ghost

[Ghostrider]

Last time i checked our server is located in the usa. we have the right to do what we want with the box's we pay for.

Of course it is your box. You can break it appart if you like, it's your hardware. What you have no right to do "whatever you want" with is the software that's running inside of it, and last time I checked, it was our mod and our content.

Perhaps you can understand it better with the "last time I checked" comparison.


-Ghost