Squad-Based Intelligence - Minimap Discussion

[Croix]

I hit on this idea earlier this morning, but I'm starting to think that it could deserve it's own thread. I sincerely hope it hasn't been submitted before (I have checked) but if it has, I apologize, and mods should probably close this so it won't waste everyone's time.

Anyway, on to the introduction - many people have brought up the issue that while PR does do a great job simulating squad combat when people choose to play in squads, there are many that also choose to work alone, and the consequence is that the team on the whole tends to suffer.

So far, there aren't too many incentives for cohesion in squads, the one boon coming to mind (besides the obvious staying alive longer) is the point bonus one receives in a certain proximity to their squad leader. I don't get the sense that this is really enough though to dissuade players from using unreasonably unrealistic tactics (like 'spawning' in on SL and running off to find someone to kill, or not joining a squad at all).

My idea is aimed at curbing this behavior and bolstering the need for squad cohesion by limiting intelligence assets to the average soldier unless they are in relatively close proximity to their SL. When soldiers are operating within that defined radius, they get all the benefits of the PR .5 minimap. Upon leaving that area, their minimap and unit reporting/identifying abilities vanish.

This would drastically reduce the ability of lone wolves to fight, in the end, probably force them into squads.

It seems fairly sketchy (Not sure how realistic either) to have every soldier in the field equipped with the level of intelligence that they currently are (especially the Insurgent class, though I understand why it currently is).

Bottom line seems to be - the GPS system is unrealistic, and Lone Wolves are plentiful. I think these issues are related, and in my opinion they can both be taken out by giving only fully functioning squads the entire GPS system and the benefits that come with it.

You could offer greater incentives (in terms of points, new squad based kits, etc) for squad play but that might end up with Squads on the whole being overpowered. It makes more sense to me to instead choose to nerf the ability of folks to play as lone wolves.

[lysander_atrull]

sounds like quite a good idea - the minimap-becomes-useless feature is already implemented when you're close to dying

[Smash-Crunch]

What about when a squad splits up to flank the enemy?

[lysander_atrull]

perhaps make it how relatively close you are to your squadmates ?

typicaly if you flank you are still close to one of your squadmates.

and anyway, the range could be enough to encompas your average flanking manouvre but not a n 'across whole the map' flanking manouver'

[Croix]

What about when a squad splits up to flank the enemy?

What about it? I think that there are ways of implementing this that would negate that fear entirely, like adding a timer to the intelligence loss so that you lose it ten seconds after leaving the SL radius, enabling quick maneuvers outside of the intelligence zone.

Also, depending on the radius chosen for intelligence to work within, this might not be a problem at all. I'd say about a twenty meter intelligence radius makes sense, and that's wide enough to allow a lot of freedom of movement.

The idea of a squad isn't that they are a mile or even a block away from each other - they need to work together, move together, and fire together to be most effective.

[General_J0k3r]

only thing is: if you're last man standing in ur squad after a heavy attack being the last to defend a flag, you're gonna be f***ed Oo

[Croix]

only thing is: if you're last man standing in ur squad after a heavy attack being the last to defend a flag, you're gonna be f***ed Oo

LOL yep.

But not if you're smart and the Enemy isn't.

That last man still has a lot of options that could prolong his life.

Like... run away!

[ArmedDrunk&Angry]

This has been suggested before and it's a good idea.
To all those who will say " SEARCH " .... chill ...lots of new forum members and this is a very hot topic.... enforced teamwork.

[Croix]

This has been suggested before and it's a good idea.
To all those who will say " SEARCH " .... chill ...lots of new forum members and this is a very hot topic.... enforced teamwork.

Thank you.

I wouldn't mind at all if this turned into a discussion about the finer points of enforced teamwork.

[KP]

A very polite, well thought-out post. You are one of the few "suggestions" posters that's actually used the search function and apologize if it's come up before. That's the sort of suggesters we like. Hell, I like you. You can come over to my house and f*ck my brother.

Anyways, on topic: I like the idea, and would like to see it implemented in some form.

[AfterDune]

Yes, a good thread. Even if this one was mentioned before, your post is a fresh point of view and, like Drunken Thus Dangerous said, many new members.

I would very much like to see some "enforced" teamplay (though I don't like this term, enforced). Of course, this needs some more thinking, more "what-if" situations and all, but I like the whole concept. Especially the mini-map thingy. Indeed, it is possible, happens when you're almost dying (like Lysander said), or had some bullets pretty close to your head.. (something like that).

Gonna follow this one

[BoogieWines]

devils advocate type comment (meaning i like the general idea but will throw in some spanners and see whether it stands up)

wont team kills increase due to this rule? (the inability to spot friend from foe being much more difficult without the mini-map, one presumes/infers that lone wolves will not want to take such risks and would rather change their behaviour to fit in, this might not be the case, they may just play without mini-map and to hell with the consequences)

just a thought anyway.

[KP]

People will probably start adapting and triple-checking their targets after seeing half the server being kicked for excessive teamkilling

[Darkpowder]

Just limiting it to the current squad displayed on the minimap, would be good perhaps.

the only problem with this is other squads can't easily come and support other squads, which would just lead to too many one squad vs. one engagements, which is -too- much of a feature anyway with a lot of AAS 2 capture points.

Without built-in squad-to-squad comms you would just get a LOT of **** typing on the screen telling people what was going on in other parts of the maps.

It would make -lonewolfs- more of a problem with people sneaking around on their own, with the knowledge that enemy squads can't see what is going on with other squads easily enough.

It makes commander mandatory, which though i enjoy there aren't enough people who enjoy the role to see one all the time. For public play at least the game needs to be playable without a commander.

[Wolfe]

Forcing teamwork through technology is kinda like a government trying to force morality through legislation; you can set up all the rules in the world but if the people don't want to work together, they'll find ways around them no matter what.

One of the nice things about PR is that its design inherently promotes teamwork; you'll live much longer with it but you'll never get rid of the lone wolves and that's fine. If a squad member is not cooperating with the squad then kick him/her from the group. Lock it if necessary, or play with a known group of buddies or play on a server where teamwork is encouraged.

As for a point system penalty; individual point scoring is distracting and can have a "freeloader" effect of solders running up to a flag just to get the points. A good squad will secure a flag by having 2-3 at the flag and the other 2-3 securing the perimeter; outside the flag point radius. Those who were outside didn't receive points, but nevertheless were just as instrumental in capping the flag as those standing next to it.

Maybe points should be scored by team, not by individual, further promoting teamwork, or only score kills. I believe the scoring system is undergoing an overhaul, so we'll see where it goes.

[Croix]

Forcing teamwork through technology is kinda like a government trying to force morality through legislation; you can set up all the rules in the world but if the people don't want to work together, they'll find ways around them no matter what.

One of the nice things about PR is that its design inherently promotes teamwork; you'll live much longer with it but you'll never get rid of the lone wolves and that's fine. If a squad member is not cooperating with the squad then kick him/her from the group. Lock it if necessary, or play with a known group of buddies or play on a server where teamwork is encouraged.

As for a point system penalty; individual point scoring is distracting and can have a "freeloader" effect of solders running up to a flag just to get the points. A good squad will secure a flag by having 2-3 at the flag and the other 2-3 securing the perimeter; outside the flag point radius. Those who were outside didn't receive points, but nevertheless were just as instrumental in capping the flag as those standing next to it.

Maybe points should be scored by team, not by individual, further promoting teamwork, or only score kills. I believe the scoring system is undergoing an overhaul, so we'll see where it goes.

I agree with you and then again I don't. In the end, it's up to the people who play to choose what they want to do and when.

I think making certain activities that are generally frowned upon more difficult to do is a step in the right direction for minimizing them on the whole. Take that step too fast and you're going to alienate some people though.

I don't agree with you that it takes 3 inside cap zone and 3 outside cap zone to take a point, or that is the most effective way to do so. Usually there are capzone parts that extend into cover and can be used to gain the upper hand against an attacking enemy.

My main problem is that battlefield communications can indeed be a problem in real life. Blue on blue happens and there's really nothing that can be done about it. In PR (largely because of the universal GPS) I get the sense that such occasions would be entirely avoidable if people would just pay attention to their minimaps or spot others, and that just doesn't seem very 'real'. Then again neither are 200m draw distances and 'detail levels' that leave poor African American USMC looking like Balaclava-clad insurgents.

I really do like the fact that PR automatically promotes teamwork. The difference between PR and real life (besides the many obvious points) is that IRL you face serious issues if you go AWOL or break your squad discipline. There's a reason for it too, because those in-charge realize the danger posed to individual soldiers on the Battlefield, and also that closely coordinated squad level tactics are more successful.

I guess, in general, I want all of the obvious dangers to individuals in the field to be well and realistically modeled so that only most players will choose to work within the squad framework. In reality, I doubt a US Army Soldier would ever voluntarily abandon their squad or unit because they, like their commanders and SL's, know the risks of working alone.

The fact that Lone Wolfing can be done with even moderate success is a testament to the unreality of PR, really. That's not to say the mod is proceeding badly at all, but simply to point out that on paper, our military doesn't work that way unless it's personnel dedicated to that end.

A very polite, well thought-out post. You are one of the few "suggestions" posters that's actually used the search function and apologize if it's come up before. That's the sort of suggesters we like. Hell, I like you. You can come over to my house and f*ck my brother.

Anyways, on topic: I like the idea, and would like to see it implemented in some form.

Thank you, I think.

[Gwaihir]

people leaving the squadleaders shuld just die in my opinion.. otherwise the ide of yours is really good

[xseeyax]

This would defenitely change all those campin snipers, because they wouldn't be able to see the spotted guys, that would be good because then the only way you could snipe with succes is if you are defending a flag, this is a good idea make all those campin cowards to get out on the field and really get their hands dirty.

[JuniperM40]

Greets all,

Having the minimap placed in the top right of the screen, taking up valuable "real estate" so to speak, and having to look, up, and right, every few seconds to ensure you're not about to nuke some blue-guy, (and thus taking your eyes off the action in front of you...), is well,

....it's simply in the wrong position IMHO.

Now, lower centre of your screen, is taken up by your arms, your gun, your sleeeves, your gloves, etc... which is always there, again, blockiing one's view anyways... so....

Perhaps we could have an option to render the minimap directly in the centre of the bottom of one's screen.

This is more akin to other FPS games, which put your compass/direction/targets/map in the lower portion of the screen, whichis normally occupied by your own character's model. Plus, it's within peripheral vision of your main gun sight, so you can effectively see both your minimap, and your iron sights at the same time.

My $0.02.

Thanks for listening.

- JM40.

[[PTG]Z.user]

what about when you zoom in to look down your sights.
I think its fine where it is. You can make it transparent in your options if its an eye sore!