Medic's capabilities

Doedel · Post by **Doedel** » 2005-09-08 08:00

Okay, so here's my idea. Its two-fold and involves A) realistic body damage and B) what the medic should be able to do about wounded comrades.

First, let me just say I dont like that you can magically zap someone back to life. Its all cool and nifty and all, but it isn't exactly realistic. Actually, none of the medic **** is. Anyway...

First a small talk about effects of being shot. First, I think, being shot ANYWHERE should put you into "shock mode" where everything becomes blurry and sounds are muffled. I think this should be done because IRL, that's similar to what does happen. You get the wind knocked out of you, or you're just so shocked by the feeling of a bullet travelling at such high speeds impacting into your flesh.. often it'll altogether knock someone down, or cause them to fall down, but since this isn't possible in BF2 I propose going into "shock" mode when you're shot... ANYWHERE.

Second, damage and wound effects should be realistic. Being shot in your body armour should NOT kill you but it SHOULD do some damage. Even if it stops the bullet, the bullet's sheer speed have the capability to break your ribs or atleast cause a heck of a lot of pain, and even if you're jacked up on adrenaline being shot 5 times in body armour will still put you down.. not kill you, but pretty much incapacitate you.

Third, shots to critical parts of the body, such as the upper arms and legs, the shoulders, sides and so on, should start a bleed. They generally aren't covered by armour, and although being shot there won't kill you outright, it most likely will start you bleeding badly.

Fourth, Shots to the head and neck should just kill you right there, obviously.

Lastly, differentiating between "critically wounded" and "killed" -- PLEASE take special care to make sure this is done right. Ie, no amount of shocking you with defibs is going to heal half your brains being strewn about the courtyard, nor will it heal your guts seeping out of your shredded stomach. Infact, bringing someone back to life should be very rare. For example, when you are killed after being shot in the body armour several times, in which case you aren't really dead but are just incapacitated, THAT would be a good time to bring someone back.. but otherwise, if a guy bleeds to death or is killed as a result of a gunshot wound, no reviving should be possible.

NOW, as for what a MEDIC should be able to do...

First, medics' dropped healthpacks should heal very little damage. The majority of their "healing powers" should come from sitting over a wounded mate fixing his wounds, not plopping a bunch of bandages and needles beside him, watching them magically get sucked into him and BLAM, he's healed.

Second, medics shouldn't be able to revive, or atleast, only be able to very rarely. For instance, in the case I gave about a guy being overwhelmed by being shot in the body armour multiple times, maybe he could be revived, but otherwise.. defibbing people is nice and all but it doesn't/shouldn't heal bullet wounds to the head or torn internal organs.

And of course, medics should be able to stop bleeds, but heal slowly.

In terms of weapons.. they should only get a rifle for self-defense, no grenades, pistol optional.

So yeah, to sum up...

A) Realistic body part damages & effects such as bleeding, shock effect & etc (ie majority of people should die not from outright physical trauma but from bloodloss after being wounded in a firefight... unless he is exploded by a tank shell in which case, nah)
B) Realistic medic capabilities suchs as reviving only lightly wounded comrades, no dropping medpacks (or very "small" medpacks only to heal scratches & light injuries), slower healtime, no self-heal if possible
C) LOTS of points for healing.
D) If possible, only certain vehicles such as APCs and Humvees should be able to become "mobile hospitals" to heal people nearby. If not possible, remove it altogether!

Did I miss anything? Whaddya think?

toffa_h · Post by **toffa_h** » 2005-09-08 20:48

Hmm, bullets do not have enough energy to push something the size of a person. Bullets do not make the person who has been shot fly backwards like in Hollywood movies, the bullets actually go through the entire body almost without any reaction from the person. They cut through your flesh thanks to the high speed and pointed tip, they don't hit you like a sledgehammer like Hollywood movies would like you to believe. Second of all, being shot does not make you go into immediate shock. Just yesterday I read about a soldier who had been shot (don't know if it was on this board or the board for the Insurgency mod for HL2). He did not fall down in shock, his body was pumped with so much adrenaline that his entire mindset revolved around shooting the ******* that had dared attack him. He didn't even feel the pain. Naturally, if you're shot in the head you'll fall down like a sack of potatoes, but don't assume that any shot will make you instantly useless.

bpwelch · Post by **bpwelch** » 2005-09-08 20:53

Totally agree with Doedel, the medic class is highly unrealistic right now; putting some limitations on it at the very least would be nice.

-bpwelch

TerribleOne · Post by **TerribleOne** » 2005-09-08 23:03

toffa_h wrote:Hmm, bullets do not have enough energy to push something the size of a person. Bullets do not make the person who has been shot fly backwards like in Hollywood movies, the bullets actually go through the entire body almost without any reaction from the person. They cut through your flesh thanks to the high speed and pointed tip, they don't hit you like a sledgehammer like Hollywood movies would like you to believe. Second of all, being shot does not make you go into immediate shock. Just yesterday I read about a soldier who had been shot (don't know if it was on this board or the board for the Insurgency mod for HL2). He did not fall down in shock, his body was pumped with so much adrenaline that his entire mindset revolved around shooting the ******* that had dared attack him. He didn't even feel the pain. Naturally, if you're shot in the head you'll fall down like a sack of potatoes, but don't assume that any shot will make you instantly useless.

Hate to spoil what you just said but bullets dont "cut through your flesh thanks to the high speed and pointed tip," Bullets are designed to flatten upon impact thus creating a larger projectile to impact the target, only acceptions would be armor piercing rounds etc.
Allso you are very wrong in saying bullets travel right through the body because believe it or not you could get shot in the shoulder (entry) and it can easily bounce around and come out of your chest (exit), Seriously.
Your right in the fact you do not feel immediate pain but only for serious wounds if you got shot in the foot or arm youd sure scream.
If you get hit even with a bullet proof vest on by a higher calibre weapon the shock and not knowing if your about to die or shrug it off and let the bruise form is enough to knock people off there feet.

worst 3 · Post by **worst 3** » 2005-09-09 00:10

i know some bulets flaten or bend on impact but many dont to. the ak bulet with the air filled tip is dose serious damge but some guns dont as much. not sure with ones but i think the m16 dose not bend alot compared to other guns (i think soldires complain that the m16 (typ series) lacks the stoping power of other guns. that is why there is look in to a new caliber (6.??) but not positive if that is related. also the chinese use a 5.8 round in there typ 95 but not sure about the power diffrence. but the body armor of today is very good at stoping bulets. i have seen a few vidios of an svd shot to a in the chest and fell down got up and then got to cover. but there are lots of small things that could change the result of being shot alot of times it depends on the person and a millimeter.

1 idea i have would be after like 10 seconds being criticaly wouded you would have to press a bouton to keep your self alive. a little indicator would pop up saying when to press and the longer you live the harder it becomes to hit the buton as the indicator comes up. (the first 3 times it lasts 2 secinds the next 3 1.5 the next 3 would be 1 and soo on an it would be cool and a way to try to make is so you can try to stay alive and have some control when u die but it sould become soo fast that you can keep up eventuly.

Super62 · Post by **Super62** » 2005-09-09 00:25

You won't always go into shock when you get shot. There was a marine on shootout who said it felt like a beesting to him because of the adrenline. If your shot somewhere important yes you probably will go into shock. Its fine how it is now.

The 5.56mm round is designed to maim not kill. When it was designed in the 1960s maiming seemed to be the way to go. They figured out the hard way that that isn't they way to go. The 7.62 MM NATO and 7.62X39 were designed in the 1940s/1950s and designed to kill. The 6.8 was looked at but probably won't be issued. The newest body armor can stop a 7.62 round if the plates are used.

Scribble · Post by **Scribble** » 2005-09-09 00:42

To be really awkward: I know it aint even slightly realistic, but healing/reviving medics do ad a lot to the game. Though i loath med [and for that matter ammo] packs.

Id there a way to keep the basic principle in game whilst removing the more blatently arcady elements?

waffenbaum · Post by **waffenbaum** » 2005-09-09 10:31

It actually said in the manual:

"Defib pads: Main medic tool, use for reviving fallen soldiers of your own force. Can also be used as a weapon; sneak up on an unexpecting enemy and give him the shock of his life!"

TerribleOne · Post by **TerribleOne** » 2005-09-09 17:43

Some elements need to be left in the game because without them it wont be as fun.

IMO this includes medics healing and reviving. Allthough it could be morphed another way but keeping the same principle i believe it needs to stay.

Doedel · Post by **Doedel** » 2005-09-09 22:04

I didn't mean throw the person back through the physical force of the impact of the bullet -- I meant the person would most likely lose his balance, or simply fall from the surprise of it. I've seen footage from Iraq (on CNN, w00t!) of a guy getting pinned in the chest with a Dragunov. He survived, but he fell backwards (legs actually went up over his head) not from the force but from the sheer surprise of feeling that impact. In other cases yes, people won't ALWAYS fall down but it is rare that someone can be shot and continue going on as if it didn't happen. What I was saying is, I'd like to see SOMEthing happen, ie, the blur effect.

As for healing and reviving.. like I said, you should be able to "revive" comrades who "die" as a result of being shot repeatedly in their body armour, where it's more a matter of they've simply been pummelled into unconsciousness or something... then, the medic can go up, patch him up, give him some morphine, whatever, and he's on his way. But deaths that occur from being shot in the head or severe blood loss after being shot in the upper arm or leg (oo, artieries) shouldn't be revivable. Also, I think when you revive someone, they shouldn't be revived to full health. I'd like to see revive bring a person barely back to life, like a single bar of health, and then have to undergo more healing.

Like I said though, dropping a healthpack for instantaneous magical healing, that is far from realistic. Dropping medpacks that'll heal minor wounds, maybe 4 bars of health, that's okay.. but this is supposed to be a reality mod, is it not? If you're going to make a realism mod, make it all realistic. Don't cut corners.

Post by **BrokenArrow** » 2005-09-10 00:10

i say if its possible, after having them been hit make them very very slow.

Scribble · Post by **Scribble** » 2005-09-10 22:08

What I would like to see is:

Blur effects when shot. [Brothers in Arms did this really well]

medics still able to revive, but reviving only restores the fallen soldier to 10-25% of health.

Medics still able to heal, though more slowly and with smaller area of effect but loose health pack ability

Medics [allong with support and engineers] unable to heal people external to their vehicle (removing the ambulance effect) but still heal [or supply] people within their vehicle.

Though its obviously not completely realistic the above removes the overtly arcady elements of the current system while still retaining its enormous benifits to gameplay.

Doedel · Post by **Doedel** » 2005-09-11 07:44

Personally I liked FH's almost complete obliteration of the medic class. Only time I ran into it was on El Alamein, and then, it was a pickup kit containing a pistol and a medpack.

Post by **BrokenArrow** » 2005-09-11 21:42

i believe the medic promotes teamwork, they just need to be knocked down a notch from god mode where they stand now.

DuckCommander · Post by **DuckCommander** » 2005-09-11 23:21

Scribble wrote:What I would like to see is:

Blur effects when shot. [Brothers in Arms did this really well]

medics still able to revive, but reviving only restores the fallen soldier to 10-25% of health.

Medics still able to heal, though more slowly and with smaller area of effect but loose health pack ability

Medics [allong with support and engineers] unable to heal people external to their vehicle (removing the ambulance effect) but still heal [or supply] people within their vehicle.

Though its obviously not completely realistic the above removes the overtly arcady elements of the current system while still retaining its enormous benifits to gameplay.

I dont know if a soldier's vision blurs when he's shot. That's pure assumption.

Also Doedel... this maybe a realism mod, but total realism WILL kill most of the fanbase. Coming from someone whose played a realism mod for a couple of years... I know total realism will kill off a good chunk of the fanbase.

You think nobody plays the Minimod now? Imagine if it was more realistic.

Post by **BrokenArrow** » 2005-09-12 00:47

ducks right, there needs to be compromise.

gnwbumblino · Post by **gnwbumblino** » 2005-09-12 09:02

DuckCommander wrote:I dont know if a soldier's vision blurs when he's shot. That's pure assumption.

Also Doedel... this maybe a realism mod, but total realism WILL kill most of the fanbase. Coming from someone whose played a realism mod for a couple of years... I know total realism will kill off a good chunk of the fanbase.

You think nobody plays the Minimod now? Imagine if it was more realistic.

Hear hear.

I'm following this mod because BF2 is totally unrealistic.
I'm fed up of unleashing a whole clip on bunny-hoppy 10yr olds.

I personally really like the medic class in BF2 - it brings a lot more teamwork into the game.
- It's just stupid it gives 100% from defib. (should be 25% at most)
- Should be bandage + adrenaline rather than defib paddles.

Be nice to hear what a DEV has to say - an idea of what they're goal is, realism wise.

GABBA · Post by **GABBA** » 2005-09-12 13:07

The "zapper" is the only thing that makes mdeic great in bf2. you need SOME chance in trying to revive your sqaudleader if your of behind enemy lines. Try to remember its still a GAME. game= fun.