No, I just dont like this gun-ho attitude at the moment ... quick glance, and unload a full clip. Slow the pace down by getting rid of the red tag alternative.JP*wasteland.soldier wrote:Oh now I get it. You guys *like* being TKed....
minimap
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Guerra norte
- Posts: 1666
- Joined: 2006-07-19 17:37
I must admit I feel extreme frustration whenever this question is raised and that there is no more point for me to argument and ***** about the reason to remove it, however, I have a question for all that oppose minimap removal:
Does it not bother you that there are other games which can even be viewed as even more arcadish than PR is, does not feature a minimap function which has been stated before as being "magic real-time telemetry out to 2+ Km" and has no real world equivalents?
Does it not bother you that there are other games which can even be viewed as even more arcadish than PR is, does not feature a minimap function which has been stated before as being "magic real-time telemetry out to 2+ Km" and has no real world equivalents?
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Blackhawk 5
- Posts: 1607
- Joined: 2006-08-25 02:23
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$kelet0r
- Posts: 1418
- Joined: 2006-11-15 20:04
it's gotten a bit ridiculous when the fan base of a reality mod WANT a magic minimap to stay
I can see enemies spotted by other squads kilometres away, I can instantly tell which areas are safe or not by how many friendlies are around and I can spam spot to locate hidden enemies or IFF lazily. In another deathmatch game doing all that would be called cheating - yet somehow it's acceptable in a reality mod?
I can see enemies spotted by other squads kilometres away, I can instantly tell which areas are safe or not by how many friendlies are around and I can spam spot to locate hidden enemies or IFF lazily. In another deathmatch game doing all that would be called cheating - yet somehow it's acceptable in a reality mod?
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{GD}StevenGarcia
- Posts: 381
- Joined: 2006-09-08 20:06
That pretty much sums it up.$kelet0r wrote:it's gotten a bit ridiculous when the fan base of a reality mod WANT a magic minimap to stay
Last edited by {GD}StevenGarcia on 2007-03-29 23:22, edited 1 time in total.
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fuzzhead
- Retired PR Developer
- Posts: 7463
- Joined: 2005-08-15 00:42
this has been brought up countless times, more than likely this post will be closed because it already has an entire thread dedicated to it. I believe there are no plans in the immediate future to remove the minimap, but Id like to believe we are on our way forward in this direction.
I will post my summed up response to this question in the next post.
I will post my summed up response to this question in the next post.
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fuzzhead
- Retired PR Developer
- Posts: 7463
- Joined: 2005-08-15 00:42
Say "YES!" to Mini-map Removal
The Mini-Map", "Spin-Map", "Gay-Dar" - call it what you will, it is by far the biggest arcade feature still left in PRM. Serious Tactical Realism may never be as popular as arcade/action fantasy realism, so why cripple the mod for it's intended audience (Serious Tactical Immersion) with arcade fantasy features that force arcade game-play? I believe that there seems to be no logical reason to keep the Spin-Map in game. PRM is advertising itself as a "realism" mod, and the 'Spin-Map' totally obviates and in some cases even makes a great deal of valuable and fun 'realistic' game-play impossible. There is a perfectly acceptable substitute: at the press of a key you can instantly see a much larger, more realistic, tactical map -- with all the same real-time telemetry that offers both greater detail and scale, and it even has adjustable alpha so they can still see through it. I will explain point by point why I believe there is no logical reason to keep the mini-map, starting with:
First - having much less HUD will drastically IMPROVE your situation awareness. Instead of looking at the crappy 2d shit on your screen, you will absorb all the 3 dimensional input. You will be immersed much more into the 3d world than if there is a bunch of 2D images blocking your view. It's not just the aesthetic warts of having 2D overlays all over the place, it's also fact that 2D overlays break eye brain fusion that creates the illusion of depth in a flat projected game and takes a lot of immersiveness out of the game. Both are a travesty of bad game design on any flavor of FPS realism be it action realism like vanilla BF2 or serious tactical realism. Digressions about situational awareness are frankly, ridiculous. a real soldier does not sit in a comfy chair, sipping Mountain Dew, in air-conditioned comfort, focused on every minute detail, instantly able to shift his view without strain or risk, and he sure as hell does not have magic real-time telemetry out to 2+ Km updating him instantly to what's going on. There is no real-world always-on, real-time, battlefield telemetry that offers a fraction of the information the magical fantasy 'Spin Map' offers.
Second - Communication and navigation will now actually become an essential part of gameplay! This will really cut down the amount of lonewolves and greif players because it will no longer be easy to find targets that OTHER SQUADS are pointing out. Foregoing the magic spin-map in PRM wouldn't even require the level of realistic tactical navigation game skill that games like: Ghost Recon, Operation Flash Point, Hidden & Dangerous, Line of Sight Vietnam, Red Orchestra, VBS1 required.
Third - The magic 'Spin Map' mitigates or out-right completely prevents virtually all realistic squad tactics from even working; you don't need to use proper bounding or RTFA, you just need a quick peek at your spin map and you can Rambo or maneuver through just about anything but a well entrenched line of fire. Reality is not so friendly or so effortless, or so instantly informative. Add to this the 'fog of battle' and it's easy to see why real military tactics are an exploration in tactical caution -- rather then BF2 (and PRM to an extent) which are merely an exercise in relentless aggression eg. Ramboing. If this were intended to be yet another insipid Counter-Strike inspired action arcade realism paint job mod that had little concern for game-play realism, it would be fine. But ; from tactics and stealth, how fire fights are executed, to actual game pace itself, the spin map affects us all. As things are right now, PRM is just as hyper-active and spammy as vanilla BF2 and not even close to the level of realism of many older, simpler, but more objectively based realistic games.
Four - The supporters of the 'Spin Map' often use the word "Feel" when arguing for keeping it. That they would 'feel' the situation better in reality than you can from a monitor. Of course that is true. But even if you are arguing about situational fire, regardless of who's under fire; the player under fire will invariably do a lot better by looking for cover, using terrain, returning fire, and/or maneuvering for cover fire - NOT trying to exploit magical arcade advantage via Gay-Dar. This gives players false sense of security, and makes them rely on an artificial advantage.
Many responses to removing mini-map has been met by critics claiming: "PR is also not meant to be a simulator or a game for only hardcore players, its supposed to be a balance of gameplay and realism."
No one is arguing to make this game a simulator. Most players I imagine would just like to see realism parity with older realism games. Again just to name a few titles to show where a lot of tactical realism fans take the temperature of realism game play, explore:
· Rogue Spear
· Ghost Recon
· Operation Flashpoint Series
· Red Orchestra
· Elite Warriors Vietnam
· Deadly Dozen Pacific Theater
· Sum Of All Fears
· Close Combat
· True Combat
· Hidden & Dangerous Series
· Vietcong Series
None of these games offer a 'Spin-Map'... And as mentioned previously two enormously (arguably most) popular realism titles: Call Of Duty and Medal Of Honor that are much more openly of the arcade realism persuasion (then PRM sells itself as being); do not have a 'Spin-Map'. More people play these two franchise titles then all other realism titles save CS combined; which should I would think speak volumes for game-play without a 'Spin-Map'.
Another comment that seems to pop up a lot is something along the lines of "Organized play won't notice much of a difference, but public play will become a mess." Well I have some news: public play is already a mess. The ones that play on public servers and are tactical leaders, changing the tides of the battles and creating a realistic environment don't feel the need for a 'Spin-Map'. Ask around, ask your favorite squad leaders. Do they want something that promotes rushing, mindless attacking and all the other 'tactics' you see in a typical bf2 round? The attraction of a realism mod is that it requires you to think hard, in lots of different ways and map reading and route planning is just another part of it. Loosing the 'Spin-Map' does have short term disadvantages BUT the long term advantages are great - PR will become about taking your time. Never rush to the objective, think, plan, execute with precision, speed, efficiency. Getting people not to rush will force them to stop and think, rather than make mindless decisions. This opens a whole new world of tactical possibilities, where you wont know where the enemy comes from next, instead of the now tiring stalemates of 2 forces rushing head on at each other until the map ends. You see, the 'Spin-Map' makes players think they know most of whats going, when in reality, they only have a tiny, fragmented, out of context view.
Often the point of 'new players wont like it' comes up. People seem to think it will become harder for new players to start playing without a 'Spin-Map'. Just the opposite is in fact the case. Currently, new players are instantly killed due to the high FHD (First Hit Decisiveness) weapons of PRM. The more skilled players have the ability to exploit the 'Spin-Map', find a loitering 'Noob' and dispatch him before he's even sorted his situation out. Even at the 'Noob' level removing the 'Spin-Map' will have a positive effect as other more skilled players won't instantly/magically know where he is and take him out instantly.
Some people have often thought "I am always going to get shot while looking at my map." If you are alone standing up in the middle of a field, then yea, you probably will get shot. This is part and parcle of a realism game - getting your map out in a safe and secure area, and planning a route. Thats what makes the difference between a completly mindless and small arcade game on a map the size of your garden and PR's huge maps, with lots of room to flank and use squad tactics. You should always be moving from cover to cover sticking with your squad and fire team partner. This will promote players looking for a safe place to open their map.
PRM may have the best intentions of attracting the widest audience possible by keeping this arcade feature, but I believe all that it's accomplishing is making a game that's watered down that cannot really appeal strongly to anyone. A great many serious tactical realism fans won't even bother with PRM because all it really has as far as many can see is the realistic damage levels. PRM can still play just like a spawn-speed-spam, arcade Counter-Strike-play-alike (with vehicles) more then a serious tactical realism. Those players that currently use the tactical map in PRM will be the ones who plan and think carefully - those are the people that PR wants.
Example of thoughts from a VBF2 Player: "The 'Spin-Map' replaces the commanders and radio operators." Nope. It's a real-time-shoot-first-think-later radar. It DOE NOT encourage communication or cohesion, it encourages lone wolfing and carelessness.
From a PR Players Perspective:
I've been playing without the 'Mini-Map' for a few days now and guess what i've discovered? It actually INCREASES your situational awareness because the 'Spin-Map' distracts you from scanning your Field Of View, so if you want to know where friendly and enemy inf. is located, its just the push of the Caps Lock key.
If the mini map is removed I believe players will have to rely on more than just the FPS "kill the threat as soon as you can see it" mentality. There is a strong dependence on this 'Mini-Map' being the integral part of the BF/PR experience from the beginning. One of the best aspects of the PRM 0.4 has been the player tag limiting; I've got the sweats so many times because I've not been completely certain whether a person is friend or foe, particularly if they've been in a vehicle. This presented a new challenge and forced me to think more before reacting, an experience that added more depth to the gameplay. The uncertainly over what is and isn't a threat adds a new dynamic. It reminded me of a documentary I saw on friendly fire in the 2nd Gulf War. The camera crew followed British and American troops patrolling a marshland. There were a number of times where it was uncertain whether gunfire came from the enemy or from friendlies (as it happens it was most of the time, friendlies). This is a very real aspect of modern infantry combat and one that I think would add to the gameplay. I know it would take a fair amount of time for people to get used to these changes, but ultimately with a little patience and adjustment I believe the experience would have more depth and reward to it.
Using the minimap I feel results in an arcade rambo, spam, death-match play, where the first to see the other player is the first to kill regardless of any real tactics or marksmanship skill. Realistic squad maneuver and fire tactics are virtually out of the question.
So now that Ive gone over those points, Id like to introduce a couple simple changes that would help the transition into a new PR, away from the downfalls of the 'Spin-Map'.
Recommended changes for the future:
- 'Mini-Map' is removed.
- 'M' (Tactical) Map keeps all the same information the minimap had, and remains in its current form.
- Keep the 'flag neutralizing' bar somewhere close to the ticket counter.
- Add a small spinning compass near the bottom of the screen that can be toggled on or off with the ALT key. This compass can be made to look like a real life compass OR it can just be a HUD element simular to the one located in choppers that are currently in game.
One final word quoted from myself: "I don't know if the PR player-base is quite ready to ditch the 'Spin-Map', but I would hope that in the future there would be enough support for its removal, for a better PRM."
I truly believe that with the 'Mini-Map' removed, that PRM will become closer to what we all would love to play, an immersive, tactical shooter that is as close to real life combat as we can get, yet still maintains a fun, coherent experience filled with teamwork and friends.
The Mini-Map", "Spin-Map", "Gay-Dar" - call it what you will, it is by far the biggest arcade feature still left in PRM. Serious Tactical Realism may never be as popular as arcade/action fantasy realism, so why cripple the mod for it's intended audience (Serious Tactical Immersion) with arcade fantasy features that force arcade game-play? I believe that there seems to be no logical reason to keep the Spin-Map in game. PRM is advertising itself as a "realism" mod, and the 'Spin-Map' totally obviates and in some cases even makes a great deal of valuable and fun 'realistic' game-play impossible. There is a perfectly acceptable substitute: at the press of a key you can instantly see a much larger, more realistic, tactical map -- with all the same real-time telemetry that offers both greater detail and scale, and it even has adjustable alpha so they can still see through it. I will explain point by point why I believe there is no logical reason to keep the mini-map, starting with:
First - having much less HUD will drastically IMPROVE your situation awareness. Instead of looking at the crappy 2d shit on your screen, you will absorb all the 3 dimensional input. You will be immersed much more into the 3d world than if there is a bunch of 2D images blocking your view. It's not just the aesthetic warts of having 2D overlays all over the place, it's also fact that 2D overlays break eye brain fusion that creates the illusion of depth in a flat projected game and takes a lot of immersiveness out of the game. Both are a travesty of bad game design on any flavor of FPS realism be it action realism like vanilla BF2 or serious tactical realism. Digressions about situational awareness are frankly, ridiculous. a real soldier does not sit in a comfy chair, sipping Mountain Dew, in air-conditioned comfort, focused on every minute detail, instantly able to shift his view without strain or risk, and he sure as hell does not have magic real-time telemetry out to 2+ Km updating him instantly to what's going on. There is no real-world always-on, real-time, battlefield telemetry that offers a fraction of the information the magical fantasy 'Spin Map' offers.
Second - Communication and navigation will now actually become an essential part of gameplay! This will really cut down the amount of lonewolves and greif players because it will no longer be easy to find targets that OTHER SQUADS are pointing out. Foregoing the magic spin-map in PRM wouldn't even require the level of realistic tactical navigation game skill that games like: Ghost Recon, Operation Flash Point, Hidden & Dangerous, Line of Sight Vietnam, Red Orchestra, VBS1 required.
Third - The magic 'Spin Map' mitigates or out-right completely prevents virtually all realistic squad tactics from even working; you don't need to use proper bounding or RTFA, you just need a quick peek at your spin map and you can Rambo or maneuver through just about anything but a well entrenched line of fire. Reality is not so friendly or so effortless, or so instantly informative. Add to this the 'fog of battle' and it's easy to see why real military tactics are an exploration in tactical caution -- rather then BF2 (and PRM to an extent) which are merely an exercise in relentless aggression eg. Ramboing. If this were intended to be yet another insipid Counter-Strike inspired action arcade realism paint job mod that had little concern for game-play realism, it would be fine. But ; from tactics and stealth, how fire fights are executed, to actual game pace itself, the spin map affects us all. As things are right now, PRM is just as hyper-active and spammy as vanilla BF2 and not even close to the level of realism of many older, simpler, but more objectively based realistic games.
Four - The supporters of the 'Spin Map' often use the word "Feel" when arguing for keeping it. That they would 'feel' the situation better in reality than you can from a monitor. Of course that is true. But even if you are arguing about situational fire, regardless of who's under fire; the player under fire will invariably do a lot better by looking for cover, using terrain, returning fire, and/or maneuvering for cover fire - NOT trying to exploit magical arcade advantage via Gay-Dar. This gives players false sense of security, and makes them rely on an artificial advantage.
Many responses to removing mini-map has been met by critics claiming: "PR is also not meant to be a simulator or a game for only hardcore players, its supposed to be a balance of gameplay and realism."
No one is arguing to make this game a simulator. Most players I imagine would just like to see realism parity with older realism games. Again just to name a few titles to show where a lot of tactical realism fans take the temperature of realism game play, explore:
· Rogue Spear
· Ghost Recon
· Operation Flashpoint Series
· Red Orchestra
· Elite Warriors Vietnam
· Deadly Dozen Pacific Theater
· Sum Of All Fears
· Close Combat
· True Combat
· Hidden & Dangerous Series
· Vietcong Series
None of these games offer a 'Spin-Map'... And as mentioned previously two enormously (arguably most) popular realism titles: Call Of Duty and Medal Of Honor that are much more openly of the arcade realism persuasion (then PRM sells itself as being); do not have a 'Spin-Map'. More people play these two franchise titles then all other realism titles save CS combined; which should I would think speak volumes for game-play without a 'Spin-Map'.
Another comment that seems to pop up a lot is something along the lines of "Organized play won't notice much of a difference, but public play will become a mess." Well I have some news: public play is already a mess. The ones that play on public servers and are tactical leaders, changing the tides of the battles and creating a realistic environment don't feel the need for a 'Spin-Map'. Ask around, ask your favorite squad leaders. Do they want something that promotes rushing, mindless attacking and all the other 'tactics' you see in a typical bf2 round? The attraction of a realism mod is that it requires you to think hard, in lots of different ways and map reading and route planning is just another part of it. Loosing the 'Spin-Map' does have short term disadvantages BUT the long term advantages are great - PR will become about taking your time. Never rush to the objective, think, plan, execute with precision, speed, efficiency. Getting people not to rush will force them to stop and think, rather than make mindless decisions. This opens a whole new world of tactical possibilities, where you wont know where the enemy comes from next, instead of the now tiring stalemates of 2 forces rushing head on at each other until the map ends. You see, the 'Spin-Map' makes players think they know most of whats going, when in reality, they only have a tiny, fragmented, out of context view.
Often the point of 'new players wont like it' comes up. People seem to think it will become harder for new players to start playing without a 'Spin-Map'. Just the opposite is in fact the case. Currently, new players are instantly killed due to the high FHD (First Hit Decisiveness) weapons of PRM. The more skilled players have the ability to exploit the 'Spin-Map', find a loitering 'Noob' and dispatch him before he's even sorted his situation out. Even at the 'Noob' level removing the 'Spin-Map' will have a positive effect as other more skilled players won't instantly/magically know where he is and take him out instantly.
Some people have often thought "I am always going to get shot while looking at my map." If you are alone standing up in the middle of a field, then yea, you probably will get shot. This is part and parcle of a realism game - getting your map out in a safe and secure area, and planning a route. Thats what makes the difference between a completly mindless and small arcade game on a map the size of your garden and PR's huge maps, with lots of room to flank and use squad tactics. You should always be moving from cover to cover sticking with your squad and fire team partner. This will promote players looking for a safe place to open their map.
PRM may have the best intentions of attracting the widest audience possible by keeping this arcade feature, but I believe all that it's accomplishing is making a game that's watered down that cannot really appeal strongly to anyone. A great many serious tactical realism fans won't even bother with PRM because all it really has as far as many can see is the realistic damage levels. PRM can still play just like a spawn-speed-spam, arcade Counter-Strike-play-alike (with vehicles) more then a serious tactical realism. Those players that currently use the tactical map in PRM will be the ones who plan and think carefully - those are the people that PR wants.
Example of thoughts from a VBF2 Player: "The 'Spin-Map' replaces the commanders and radio operators." Nope. It's a real-time-shoot-first-think-later radar. It DOE NOT encourage communication or cohesion, it encourages lone wolfing and carelessness.
From a PR Players Perspective:
I've been playing without the 'Mini-Map' for a few days now and guess what i've discovered? It actually INCREASES your situational awareness because the 'Spin-Map' distracts you from scanning your Field Of View, so if you want to know where friendly and enemy inf. is located, its just the push of the Caps Lock key.
If the mini map is removed I believe players will have to rely on more than just the FPS "kill the threat as soon as you can see it" mentality. There is a strong dependence on this 'Mini-Map' being the integral part of the BF/PR experience from the beginning. One of the best aspects of the PRM 0.4 has been the player tag limiting; I've got the sweats so many times because I've not been completely certain whether a person is friend or foe, particularly if they've been in a vehicle. This presented a new challenge and forced me to think more before reacting, an experience that added more depth to the gameplay. The uncertainly over what is and isn't a threat adds a new dynamic. It reminded me of a documentary I saw on friendly fire in the 2nd Gulf War. The camera crew followed British and American troops patrolling a marshland. There were a number of times where it was uncertain whether gunfire came from the enemy or from friendlies (as it happens it was most of the time, friendlies). This is a very real aspect of modern infantry combat and one that I think would add to the gameplay. I know it would take a fair amount of time for people to get used to these changes, but ultimately with a little patience and adjustment I believe the experience would have more depth and reward to it.
Using the minimap I feel results in an arcade rambo, spam, death-match play, where the first to see the other player is the first to kill regardless of any real tactics or marksmanship skill. Realistic squad maneuver and fire tactics are virtually out of the question.
So now that Ive gone over those points, Id like to introduce a couple simple changes that would help the transition into a new PR, away from the downfalls of the 'Spin-Map'.
Recommended changes for the future:
- 'Mini-Map' is removed.
- 'M' (Tactical) Map keeps all the same information the minimap had, and remains in its current form.
- Keep the 'flag neutralizing' bar somewhere close to the ticket counter.
- Add a small spinning compass near the bottom of the screen that can be toggled on or off with the ALT key. This compass can be made to look like a real life compass OR it can just be a HUD element simular to the one located in choppers that are currently in game.
One final word quoted from myself: "I don't know if the PR player-base is quite ready to ditch the 'Spin-Map', but I would hope that in the future there would be enough support for its removal, for a better PRM."
I truly believe that with the 'Mini-Map' removed, that PRM will become closer to what we all would love to play, an immersive, tactical shooter that is as close to real life combat as we can get, yet still maintains a fun, coherent experience filled with teamwork and friends.
just warning you.... the issue been brought up before many many times, and its kind of like beating a dead horse hehhehe-
77SiCaRiO77
- Retired PR Developer
- Posts: 4982
- Joined: 2006-05-17 17:44
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Clypp
- Posts: 2148
- Joined: 2006-07-17 18:36
fuzzhead is for keeping extremely unrealistic defibs because they help teamwork but he has no problem removing a slighlty unrealistic item.
The minimap is important for squad cohesion. There, that is it. That is the number one unrefutable reason to keep the minimap.
Where is SL after that brief firefight? Oh, right behind this building.
Someone spotted an enemy and gave directions(outside of player's military training) through a crappy radio circuit instead of just talking(outside of engine). You can see the enemy on the map (as an interpretation of unspoken direction)
SL find two members of his squad are not with him. Mini-map shows there position is just to the rear of him (without turning his entire body around and walking backward like a jackass)
Squad 2 is to rendez vous with Squad 1 for an assault on enemy hardpoints. SL2 is unable to tell his ETA over a non-existant squad to squad VOIP and typing is dangerous. Luckily SL1 can see him just crossing the bridge and 20s out.
Squad 1 is advancing on an enemy position. Ahead are several buildings. The soldiers prep their grenades to clear the buildings when they notice blue guys in the buildings. SL calls off the grenades and lives are saved. Ideally this would be avoided through military training (concrete movement orders) and radio chatter. Both are impractical and impossible in the game.
Other games that lack minimap are:
-slower paced (1 life/10 min round)
-Co-op vs AI (6 good guys, 40 AI)
-have replacements (Ghost Recon's threat directions)
-are chaos (UT)
-have a waypoint and compass system. BF2 has a single waypoint (not good)
-plain suck(lots)
The minimap is important for squad cohesion. There, that is it. That is the number one unrefutable reason to keep the minimap.
Where is SL after that brief firefight? Oh, right behind this building.
Someone spotted an enemy and gave directions(outside of player's military training) through a crappy radio circuit instead of just talking(outside of engine). You can see the enemy on the map (as an interpretation of unspoken direction)
SL find two members of his squad are not with him. Mini-map shows there position is just to the rear of him (without turning his entire body around and walking backward like a jackass)
Squad 2 is to rendez vous with Squad 1 for an assault on enemy hardpoints. SL2 is unable to tell his ETA over a non-existant squad to squad VOIP and typing is dangerous. Luckily SL1 can see him just crossing the bridge and 20s out.
Squad 1 is advancing on an enemy position. Ahead are several buildings. The soldiers prep their grenades to clear the buildings when they notice blue guys in the buildings. SL calls off the grenades and lives are saved. Ideally this would be avoided through military training (concrete movement orders) and radio chatter. Both are impractical and impossible in the game.
Other games that lack minimap are:
-slower paced (1 life/10 min round)
-Co-op vs AI (6 good guys, 40 AI)
-have replacements (Ghost Recon's threat directions)
-are chaos (UT)
-have a waypoint and compass system. BF2 has a single waypoint (not good)
-plain suck(lots)
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DirtyHarry88
- Posts: 1540
- Joined: 2006-12-24 18:41
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{GD}StevenGarcia
- Posts: 381
- Joined: 2006-09-08 20:06
Wow, those would all be great arguments if we were advocating removing the 'M' map as well.Clypp wrote: Someone spotted an enemy and gave directions(outside of player's military training) through a crappy radio circuit instead of just talking(outside of engine). You can see the enemy on the map (as an interpretation of unspoken direction)
SL find two members of his squad are not with him. Mini-map shows there position is just to the rear of him (without turning his entire body around and walking backward like a jackass)
Squad 2 is to rendez vous with Squad 1 for an assault on enemy hardpoints. SL2 is unable to tell his ETA over a non-existant squad to squad VOIP and typing is dangerous. Luckily SL1 can see him just crossing the bridge and 20s out.
Squad 1 is advancing on an enemy position. Ahead are several buildings. The soldiers prep their grenades to clear the buildings when they notice blue guys in the buildings. SL calls off the grenades and lives are saved. Ideally this would be avoided through military training (concrete movement orders) and radio chatter. Both are impractical and impossible in the game.
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Raniak
- Posts: 968
- Joined: 2007-01-25 01:31
You just converted me, get rid of the minimap now !'[R-DEV wrote:fuzzhead']Say "YES!" to Mini-map Removal
The Mini-Map", "Spin-Map", "Gay-Dar" - call it what you will, it is by far the biggest arcade feature still left in PRM. Serious Tactical Realism may never be as popular as arcade/action fantasy realism, so why cripple the mod for it's intended audience (Serious Tactical Immersion) with arcade fantasy features
[...]
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Clypp
- Posts: 2148
- Joined: 2006-07-17 18:36
How does running around with a big transparent map in your face make more sense? The minimap is quick and covers things you should already know from radio chatter.{GD}StevenGarcia wrote:Wow, those would all be great arguments if we were advocating removing the 'M' map as well.
In the end I don't really care if it goes or not. I am just not looking forward to the TKs and bad squad cohesion.
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Leo
- Posts: 2082
- Joined: 2006-11-29 00:40
Imagine that by 2008 the Land Warrior is incorporated into all the modern armies, the soldiers wouldn't walk around with it in their eye the whole time, they would have to flick it down, ala pressing the "M" button, squads would still be coherent, it will teach people to not be so rash with their shots, not just look on the MM for a quick sec and shoot, and it would add realism, I really see no argument against its removal.Clypp wrote:How does running around with a big transparent map in your face make more sense? The minimap is quick and covers things you should already know from radio chatter.
In the end I don't really care if it goes or not. I am just not looking forward to the TKs and bad squad cohesion.
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EPatrick
- Posts: 305
- Joined: 2006-05-12 04:41
It will get rid of the smacktards. Those so called people that TK and have no idea what is going on.Clypp wrote:How does running around with a big transparent map in your face make more sense? The minimap is quick and covers things you should already know from radio chatter.
In the end I don't really care if it goes or not. I am just not looking forward to the TKs and bad squad cohesion.
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{GD}StevenGarcia
- Posts: 381
- Joined: 2006-09-08 20:06
Clypp wrote:How does running around with a big transparent map in your face make more sense? The minimap is quick and covers things you should already know from radio chatter.
Imagine that.'[R-DEV wrote:fuzzhead']
First - having much less HUD will drastically IMPROVE your situation awareness. Instead of looking at the crappy 2d shit on your screen, you will absorb all the 3 dimensional input. You will be immersed much more into the 3d world than if there is a bunch of 2D images blocking your view. It's not just the aesthetic warts of having 2D overlays all over the place, it's also fact that 2D overlays break eye brain fusion that creates the illusion of depth in a flat projected game and takes a lot of immersiveness out of the game.
Second - Communication and navigation will now actually become an essential part of gameplay! This will really cut down the amount of lonewolves and greif players because it will no longer be easy to find targets that OTHER SQUADS are pointing out. Foregoing the magic spin-map in PRM wouldn't even require the level of realistic tactical navigation game skill that games like: Ghost Recon, Operation Flash Point, Hidden & Dangerous, Line of Sight Vietnam, Red Orchestra, VBS1 required.
Third - The magic 'Spin Map' mitigates or out-right completely prevents virtually all realistic squad tactics from even working; you don't need to use proper bounding or RTFA, you just need a quick peek at your spin map and you can Rambo or maneuver through just about anything but a well entrenched line of fire. Reality is not so friendly or so effortless, or so instantly informative. Add to this the 'fog of battle' and it's easy to see why real military tactics are an exploration in tactical caution -- rather then BF2 (and PRM to an extent) which are merely an exercise in relentless aggression eg. Ramboing. If this were intended to be yet another insipid Counter-Strike inspired action arcade realism paint job mod that had little concern for game-play realism, it would be fine. But ; from tactics and stealth, how fire fights are executed, to actual game pace itself, the spin map affects us all. As things are right now, PRM is just as hyper-active and spammy as vanilla BF2 and not even close to the level of realism of many older, simpler, but more objectively based realistic games.