minimap

[Crunchieman]

I agree with people that say that it makes people more aware of the battlefield, but I think that the devs are trying to promote reailty, therefor teamplay comes to play. In real life, you have guys on your side telling you "There is a skinny with an rpg, north east, 50 meters down!". I want to hear something simular to this. Thats why I voted yes.

[Dylan]

If we get rid of the minimap, we need to make something of a compass. Thats all I use the minimap for anyways is the compass.

[Sandy_Beret]

Dylan']If we get rid of the minimap, we need to make something of a compass. Thats all I use the minimap for anyways is the compass.

agree

[Michael_Denmark]

voted yes. Lets get some challenge.

Agree in the compass idea.

[$kelet0r]

I agree with people that say that it makes people more aware of the battlefield, but I think that the devs are trying to promote reailty, therefor teamplay comes to play. In real life, you have guys on your side telling you "There is a skinny with an rpg, north east, 50 meters down!". I want to hear something simular to this. Thats why I voted yes.

There are better ways of doing this than the vanilla BF2 option

Consider Operation Flashpoint's method and envision it in PRM - what you would have is a squad mate would spot something and rather than have it magically appear on your map - you would have a visual indicator on your screen indicating the area spotted as if a squad mate had physically pointed it out to his squad mates and the text reported would be: "hostile callsign spotted, 300m, north east". The bolded text is the default option that can be defined manually on the spotted drop down menu as opposed to automatically as it is now. The italitised text is automatic generated by the spotting action.



Behold my limited photo editing skills
1. You have a visual cue of targets spotted - realistic in mimicking pointing to the general direction of a target
2. You have useful information - again realistically mimicking the act of describing where the target is to your squad
3. Nothing magically appears on the radar - again realistic, unless you pull out the minimap as squad leader and place an 'attack here' or similar marker manually on the map, why would it magically appear on it at all

[bosco_]

Dylan']If we get rid of the minimap, we need to make something of a compass. Thats all I use the minimap for anyways is the compass.

But the compass should NOT be on the screen. It should be on the "M" map.
You don't run around with a compass in your hand all the time in reality, do you?

[Dylan]

But the compass should NOT be on the screen. It should be on the "M" map.
You don't run around with a compass in your hand all the time in reality, do you?

I never implied that is should be in place of the minimap. I just said that we need one.

"we need to make something of a compass"

The minimap consists of a compass, so removing it would equal its loss.

[Determined]

But the compass should NOT be on the screen. It should be on the "M" map.
You don't run around with a compass in your hand all the time in reality, do you?

Actually I got one on my digital watch. It also has elevation and a whole bunch of other features. There are also GPS watches among other things. If the idea posted by Skeletor won't work I don't see why it has to be messed with at all.

Anyway the below link is to something called Blue Force Tracking.
http://www.gdc4s.com/content/detail.cfm ... f2f8ebd0f6

If I'm not mistaken this is the system that displays almost like the BF2 minimap. What I mean by that is it displays a map and has symbols (tanks, soldiers and so on) that represent on the ground troops and can move at near real time if not completely. I'm guessing its all done by GPS. Now again, if this game is set in the future, who is to say that these technologies will not be shrunken down to the point that a regular joe could have it on him. Maybe in the form of a small GPS unit, watch, or even something similar to the future warrior.

[{GD}StevenGarcia]

It does not obscure mine at all.

Yes, it does.

If I'm not mistaken this is the system that displays almost like the BF2 minimap. What I mean by that is it displays a map and has symbols (tanks, soldiers and so on) that represent on the ground troops and can move at near real time if not completely. I'm guessing its all done by GPS. Now again, if this game is set in the future, who is to say that these technologies will not be shrunken down to the point that a regular joe could have it on him. Maybe in the form of a small GPS unit, watch, or even something similar to the future warrior.

Yeah, that's great. Again, why would it be in a soldier's FOV at all times?

[manligheten]

What about a SL only radar and minimap? That would keep the tactics and lessen the magic i.e. the SL gets info from HQ and says in to his soldiers.

[SGT.Collado]

How about a GPS PDA that performs like the minimap when entered that you could pull off from your weapon selection? Only the officer kit can use it. How's that?

[Indecisi0n]

yes - remove it.

[Top_Cat_AxJnAt]

Well after playing a round today, with an all VOIP squad, i realized; i raely used the mini-map. The reason being absolutely critical:

The mini-maps main purpose is to highlight specific enemy locations but when you only know the general direction of the enemy becuase the enemy are behind alot of cover, therefore it is impossible to high light their exact location.
In general, enemies and all players use alot of cover, intentionaly or not, therefore making them difficult to spot and track

This makes the the mini-map is effectively pointless becuase using VOIP, one can communicate more information quicker and clearer about possible enemy locations than using the minimap question marker.


SEMI CONCLUSION

The rounds was one of the best rounds i have had in along time, due to the brilliant communication AND just as importantly, the enemies use of tactics, particuarly massive use of well placed rally points and flanking. This also meant, increased use of cover and therefore increased difficulty in accurately spotting.

CONCLUSION

So, if all players use more tactics in general, one outcome is increased difficutly to spot them, therefore specific locations cannot be marked on the mini-map, and finaly, VOIP is much better at communicating posssible locations than the mini-map, therefore the minimap is worthless for a signifcant proportion of play.

SUBSEQUENT CONCLUSION

So, if you look at this back wards, no minimap encourages VOIP usage, which in turns encourages tactics - BEAUTIFULL!!!!!




THIS IS WHY, I NOW VOTE YES, FOR THIS REASON AND THIS ONLY

[Guerra]

Sorry cat, but one round does not mean that the minimap is useless.

If we don't have the minimap, there will be MORE TEAMKILLS.

In reality, we have huge field of view, people can be seen for miles. In this game, you can barely see someone a football field away.

So the mini map is symbolic of what you would know in reality that a small 2d monitor can not reproduce.

Also, it would make flying a whole lot harder. It would also make driving through confusing roads harder.

So I'm sorry guys, but while I hate the look of a little dinky map at all times, its important. So I don't accidentally team kill, so people don't accidentally team kill me.

I'm fine with removing spotting so you can't see enemies on the map. But knowing where teammates are is critical.

[l|Bubba|l]

Sorry cat, but one round does not mean that the minimap is useless.

If we don't have the minimap, there will be MORE TEAMKILLS.

In reality, we have huge field of view, people can be seen for miles. In this game, you can barely see someone a football field away.

So the mini map is symbolic of what you would know in reality that a small 2d monitor can not reproduce.

Also, it would make flying a whole lot harder. It would also make driving through confusing roads harder.

So I'm sorry guys, but while I hate the look of a little dinky map at all times, its important. So I don't accidentally team kill, so people don't accidentally team kill me.

I'm fine with removing spotting so you can't see enemies on the map. But knowing where teammates are is critical.

All players on both sides have to identify there target bevor they shot randomly at all moving things on the battlefield.
That makes the gameplay a little bit slower and less VBF2 like where you jump arround a corners and be sure that you expect only a few enemys.
The Minimap also assist teamkills when a player looks on the minimap and see no friendly in his direction but has a to high or low zoomlevel at this moment to see his friendly troops on the map.

And I'm sorry to ask but how would you know if there are friendlys units in 50m behind a Wall?

There is no magical map that shows you all friendly units.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=AV_16PdWnBo

[Longbow*]

I voted no just because the game is still a game. You are missing a huge amount of sensory information that you would normally have IRL, I think the minimap compensates for this loss of both visual and audible senses.

Exectly my opinion why it should stay , atleast before something alternative may be created . Spotting sistem works perfect when you do not have mic or can't comunicate with other squad's member , for example .

[Determined]

Yes, it does.


Yeah, that's great. Again, why would it be in a soldier's FOV at all times?

Wrong. It does not block it and can be made nearly see through.

Anyway, you missed my whole point. The game is supposed to be 10 to 15 years down the road. Who is to say that THIS TECHNOLOGY WILL NOT BE MINITURIZED TO THE POINT THAT THE AVERAGE SOLDIER WILL HAVE IT ON HIS PERSON.

My squad communicates incredibly well. The minimap has nothing to do with our ability to communicate or our tactics. Lack of squad leader to squad leader commo or involved commanders is what kills OVERALL tactics and teamwork.

In your average server the only teamwork being fleshed out effectively is on the squad level. Why? Because those are the only guys you can talk to. Half the time there is no commander, or one that is worth a damn that helps with commo and planning between squads. None of this has to do with the damn minimap so please stop saying it kills teamwork. Hell, if anything it is the only way for one squad to effectively help another squad.

[{GD}StevenGarcia]

Meh, I'm tired of repeating myself.

fuzzhead']Say "YES!" to Mini-map Removal

The Mini-Map", "Spin-Map", "Gay-Dar" - call it what you will, it is by far the biggest arcade feature still left in PRM. Serious Tactical Realism may never be as popular as arcade/action fantasy realism, so why cripple the mod for it's intended audience (Serious Tactical Immersion) with arcade fantasy features that force arcade game-play? I believe that there seems to be no logical reason to keep the Spin-Map in game. PRM is advertising itself as a "realism" mod, and the 'Spin-Map' totally obviates and in some cases even makes a great deal of valuable and fun 'realistic' game-play impossible. There is a perfectly acceptable substitute: at the press of a key you can instantly see a much larger, more realistic, tactical map -- with all the same real-time telemetry that offers both greater detail and scale, and it even has adjustable alpha so they can still see through it. I will explain point by point why I believe there is no logical reason to keep the mini-map, starting with:

First - having much less HUD will drastically IMPROVE your situation awareness. Instead of looking at the crappy 2d shit on your screen, you will absorb all the 3 dimensional input. You will be immersed much more into the 3d world than if there is a bunch of 2D images blocking your view. It's not just the aesthetic warts of having 2D overlays all over the place, it's also fact that 2D overlays break eye brain fusion that creates the illusion of depth in a flat projected game and takes a lot of immersiveness out of the game. Both are a travesty of bad game design on any flavor of FPS realism be it action realism like vanilla BF2 or serious tactical realism. Digressions about situational awareness are frankly, ridiculous. a real soldier does not sit in a comfy chair, sipping Mountain Dew, in air-conditioned comfort, focused on every minute detail, instantly able to shift his view without strain or risk, and he sure as hell does not have magic real-time telemetry out to 2+ Km updating him instantly to what's going on. There is no real-world always-on, real-time, battlefield telemetry that offers a fraction of the information the magical fantasy 'Spin Map' offers.

Second - Communication and navigation will now actually become an essential part of gameplay! This will really cut down the amount of lonewolves and greif players because it will no longer be easy to find targets that OTHER SQUADS are pointing out. Foregoing the magic spin-map in PRM wouldn't even require the level of realistic tactical navigation game skill that games like: Ghost Recon, Operation Flash Point, Hidden & Dangerous, Line of Sight Vietnam, Red Orchestra, VBS1 required.

Third - The magic 'Spin Map' mitigates or out-right completely prevents virtually all realistic squad tactics from even working; you don't need to use proper bounding or RTFA, you just need a quick peek at your spin map and you can Rambo or maneuver through just about anything but a well entrenched line of fire. Reality is not so friendly or so effortless, or so instantly informative. Add to this the 'fog of battle' and it's easy to see why real military tactics are an exploration in tactical caution -- rather then BF2 (and PRM to an extent) which are merely an exercise in relentless aggression eg. Ramboing. If this were intended to be yet another insipid Counter-Strike inspired action arcade realism paint job mod that had little concern for game-play realism, it would be fine. But ; from tactics and stealth, how fire fights are executed, to actual game pace itself, the spin map affects us all. As things are right now, PRM is just as hyper-active and spammy as vanilla BF2 and not even close to the level of realism of many older, simpler, but more objectively based realistic games.

Four - The supporters of the 'Spin Map' often use the word "Feel" when arguing for keeping it. That they would 'feel' the situation better in reality than you can from a monitor. Of course that is true. But even if you are arguing about situational fire, regardless of who's under fire; the player under fire will invariably do a lot better by looking for cover, using terrain, returning fire, and/or maneuvering for cover fire - NOT trying to exploit magical arcade advantage via Gay-Dar. This gives players false sense of security, and makes them rely on an artificial advantage.

Many responses to removing mini-map has been met by critics claiming: "PR is also not meant to be a simulator or a game for only hardcore players, its supposed to be a balance of gameplay and realism."
No one is arguing to make this game a simulator. Most players I imagine would just like to see realism parity with older realism games. Again just to name a few titles to show where a lot of tactical realism fans take the temperature of realism game play, explore:

· Rogue Spear
· Ghost Recon
· Operation Flashpoint Series
· Red Orchestra
· Elite Warriors Vietnam
· Deadly Dozen Pacific Theater
· Sum Of All Fears
· Close Combat
· True Combat
· Hidden & Dangerous Series
· Vietcong Series

None of these games offer a 'Spin-Map'... And as mentioned previously two enormously (arguably most) popular realism titles: Call Of Duty and Medal Of Honor that are much more openly of the arcade realism persuasion (then PRM sells itself as being); do not have a 'Spin-Map'. More people play these two franchise titles then all other realism titles save CS combined; which should I would think speak volumes for game-play without a 'Spin-Map'.

Another comment that seems to pop up a lot is something along the lines of "Organized play won't notice much of a difference, but public play will become a mess." Well I have some news: public play is already a mess. The ones that play on public servers and are tactical leaders, changing the tides of the battles and creating a realistic environment don't feel the need for a 'Spin-Map'. Ask around, ask your favorite squad leaders. Do they want something that promotes rushing, mindless attacking and all the other 'tactics' you see in a typical bf2 round? The attraction of a realism mod is that it requires you to think hard, in lots of different ways and map reading and route planning is just another part of it. Loosing the 'Spin-Map' does have short term disadvantages BUT the long term advantages are great - PR will become about taking your time. Never rush to the objective, think, plan, execute with precision, speed, efficiency. Getting people not to rush will force them to stop and think, rather than make mindless decisions. This opens a whole new world of tactical possibilities, where you wont know where the enemy comes from next, instead of the now tiring stalemates of 2 forces rushing head on at each other until the map ends. You see, the 'Spin-Map' makes players think they know most of whats going, when in reality, they only have a tiny, fragmented, out of context view.

Often the point of 'new players wont like it' comes up. People seem to think it will become harder for new players to start playing without a 'Spin-Map'. Just the opposite is in fact the case. Currently, new players are instantly killed due to the high FHD (First Hit Decisiveness) weapons of PRM. The more skilled players have the ability to exploit the 'Spin-Map', find a loitering 'Noob' and dispatch him before he's even sorted his situation out. Even at the 'Noob' level removing the 'Spin-Map' will have a positive effect as other more skilled players won't instantly/magically know where he is and take him out instantly.

Some people have often thought "I am always going to get shot while looking at my map." If you are alone standing up in the middle of a field, then yea, you probably will get shot. This is part and parcle of a realism game - getting your map out in a safe and secure area, and planning a route. Thats what makes the difference between a completly mindless and small arcade game on a map the size of your garden and PR's huge maps, with lots of room to flank and use squad tactics. You should always be moving from cover to cover sticking with your squad and fire team partner. This will promote players looking for a safe place to open their map.

PRM may have the best intentions of attracting the widest audience possible by keeping this arcade feature, but I believe all that it's accomplishing is making a game that's watered down that cannot really appeal strongly to anyone. A great many serious tactical realism fans won't even bother with PRM because all it really has as far as many can see is the realistic damage levels. PRM can still play just like a spawn-speed-spam, arcade Counter-Strike-play-alike (with vehicles) more then a serious tactical realism. Those players that currently use the tactical map in PRM will be the ones who plan and think carefully - those are the people that PR wants.

Example of thoughts from a VBF2 Player: "The 'Spin-Map' replaces the commanders and radio operators." Nope. It's a real-time-shoot-first-think-later radar. It DOE NOT encourage communication or cohesion, it encourages lone wolfing and carelessness.


From a PR Players Perspective:

I've been playing without the 'Mini-Map' for a few days now and guess what i've discovered? It actually INCREASES your situational awareness because the 'Spin-Map' distracts you from scanning your Field Of View, so if you want to know where friendly and enemy inf. is located, its just the push of the Caps Lock key.

If the mini map is removed I believe players will have to rely on more than just the FPS "kill the threat as soon as you can see it" mentality. There is a strong dependence on this 'Mini-Map' being the integral part of the BF/PR experience from the beginning. One of the best aspects of the PRM 0.4 has been the player tag limiting; I've got the sweats so many times because I've not been completely certain whether a person is friend or foe, particularly if they've been in a vehicle. This presented a new challenge and forced me to think more before reacting, an experience that added more depth to the gameplay. The uncertainly over what is and isn't a threat adds a new dynamic. It reminded me of a documentary I saw on friendly fire in the 2nd Gulf War. The camera crew followed British and American troops patrolling a marshland. There were a number of times where it was uncertain whether gunfire came from the enemy or from friendlies (as it happens it was most of the time, friendlies). This is a very real aspect of modern infantry combat and one that I think would add to the gameplay. I know it would take a fair amount of time for people to get used to these changes, but ultimately with a little patience and adjustment I believe the experience would have more depth and reward to it.

Using the minimap I feel results in an arcade rambo, spam, death-match play, where the first to see the other player is the first to kill regardless of any real tactics or marksmanship skill. Realistic squad maneuver and fire tactics are virtually out of the question.

So now that Ive gone over those points, Id like to introduce a couple simple changes that would help the transition into a new PR, away from the downfalls of the 'Spin-Map'.

Recommended changes for the future:

- 'Mini-Map' is removed.

- 'M' (Tactical) Map keeps all the same information the minimap had, and remains in its current form.

- Keep the 'flag neutralizing' bar somewhere close to the ticket counter.

- Add a small spinning compass near the bottom of the screen that can be toggled on or off with the ALT key. This compass can be made to look like a real life compass OR it can just be a HUD element simular to the one located in choppers that are currently in game.


One final word quoted from myself: "I don't know if the PR player-base is quite ready to ditch the 'Spin-Map', but I would hope that in the future there would be enough support for its removal, for a better PRM."

I truly believe that with the 'Mini-Map' removed, that PRM will become closer to what we all would love to play, an immersive, tactical shooter that is as close to real life combat as we can get, yet still maintains a fun, coherent experience filled with teamwork and friends.

[AfterDune]

Yesterday, I paid some attention to how much I use the minimap. And well, I use the normal map more than I use the minimap .
So if it's up to me, I'd say: lose the minimap. Win-win situation, more to see on screen and ppl use the normal map, on which they can see a heck lot more than on that tiny minimappy thing.

[Top_Cat_AxJnAt]

Sorry cat, but one round does not mean that the minimap is useless.

Well i am willing to becuase in the last week, most games have been on par to that, times are a changing, noobs are a learning or leavin!

POint being, removal of the mini map will encourage such high class games (re-read if dont understand).



About TeamKilling, well a friend of mine, played PR for the first time recently , and he has not played BF2 for many many months, therefore he was quite a noobie however he realized the issue with Tking and took time to ID targets first. Although very new game, he did not manage to TK anyone.

THe crucial part being, he IDed through aiming at targets and waiting for the name to appear, rather than using the mini-map. For what ever reason he did this, rather than used the mini-map, IT WORKED and therefore the mini-map is not an absolute neccessity for preventing TKing, whether you are an old timer or very new to the game.