Suggestion for a Compromise.

Suggestions from our community members for PR:BF2. Read the stickies before posting.
Guerra norte
Posts: 1666
Joined: 2006-07-19 17:37

Suggestion for a Compromise.

Post by Guerra norte »

Concerning the Minimap and HUD

For far to long I have personaly felt that this issue has been left unattended and has stirred up some quite heated debates on the forums, the issue of course is the Minimap and to some extent the HUD too.
It is becoming very repetitive from both sides of the "conflict" if you will, as to why it should stay or leave, obviously either way will leave a huge proportion of the community very unhappy and displeased, so, what is (in my oppinion) becoming very clear what to do on how to resolve this issue is possibly a compromise.

A compromise must be met that takes under cosideration arguments from both sides of the debate, those arguments are many and have been stated several times over and over again.


To recap, here are the most used arguments for both sides of the debate.





Pro Minimap removal arguments:



#Imersion.

#Cleaner HUD giving you a bigger field of view.

#Realism, plain and simple.

#No real world equivalent.

#Taking away a tool from lonewolfs which will then force teamwork.

#Forces gameplay speed down to a more desiered level.





Contra Minimap removal arguments:



#Loss of situational awareness is decreased to unrealistic levels.

#Teamkilling will increase.

#The Minimap compansates for real world military pre-planned strategies.

#Learning curve becomes too steep.

#Squad cohesion will become hard to keep.

#Similar future military HUD systems are planned for infantry.




It is in no doubt that agruments on both sides are quite valid and should be taken deeply into consideration if a compromise solution is to be met.
So instead of bickering over who has the most valid argument and never reaching a conclution, I think it's time we start searching for the best solution for that will benefit the best of both sides.

Before I go on to my suggestion I would like to say that on a subjective level I would have no problem at all with almost complete HUD removal as I have personal expirience with playing over a longer period of time (on low graphics too might I add) at settings where I have no Minimap, Icons and 3D map (five or so months to be exact), to me I view these tools as obstacles and a big realism/imersion killer, to others they are the exact oposite.
The only issues for me with these settings is that as an active VOIP user, I do not have the ability to name things such as CP's etc. also I am put at a hadicapped level of awareness compared to that of what the enemy has, therefore it is absolutely imperative that I think, act and move tactically.
I can not stress enough how important this is if I wish to survive, kill enemies, succesfully complete objectives and of course avoid friendly fire.

No longer can I run and gun carelessly around the map with no fear of killing friendlies because I have an all knowing super radar stitched on to my retinas, now I must take into consideration where friendlies are moving, where they will be within the next minute or so, where enemies might flank, uniforms and even behavior to identify friend or foo.
Taking activly cover, orienting myself, relying on verbal communication and thinking before I shoot becomes a lot more maditory rutine too, which is of course at some times a very demading procedure to follow, but the reward in gameplay quality is priceless.




Now that I've stated that, I would like come on to the subject of a possible solution, the best way for me to describe a suggestion is often in pictures, so after some after some reflecting on how and what might a good compromise, I started to fiddle about in Photoshop to see what kind of illustration I might come up with.


Below is a suggestion in picture from me on how a (to some extent) Minimapless HUD could be implemented.
As usuall it is not a pretty thing as I am not skilled at all in Photo editing, but it does add a reasonably good description on what I personaly think could be a compromise between the yes and no factions.

Image


As you can see my suggestion has three fundamental changes to the HUD which gives you quite a good field of view while maintaining a good sense of oriantation and squad cohesion.




The three changes are:


1#: No more Minimap, instead you are issued with a more discreet, less all knowing orientation squad map, the primary purpose of it's fuction is basically to give you a compansation for the lack of peripheral vision, keep in formation with your squad and to not lose track of them.
I don't know what to really call it so I'll refer to it as the Squad Map untill I can come up with a more fitting name.
The Squad Map can be though of as a drastically striped down and altered version version of the minimap with it's main purpose is to keep you oriented on where your squad is and remain as anonymous and discreet as possible, leaving you with a nice clean HUD.

No more can you see land topography, building placement and enemy positions with an exact reading if their placement, direction and movement.
Also you will notice that I've drawn the squad mates that appear out of your peripheral view (your 3 to 9 O' clock) as gray, meaning that you will not be able to identify their exact identity, I.E. if the squad leader (marked as yellow) falls out of your peripheral view, you will be only able to "sense" him a gray marker because you have no visual on him, I don't know if this is possible though.
The radius should IMO be no bigger than that of 30 meters ( that's a 100 feet for you anti-metric people..), anything else should be read by the big "M" map, or visually if it's infront of you.
No zoom should also be featured.




2#: Feature number two is the text, this is quite self explanatory, unless I've overlooked something I see no reason as to why not move the text down to the lower left corner.





3#: At number three, hopefully you have understood that I atempted to draw a compass, a feature like a toggable compass would be practical to have for locating where you are without looking on the "M" map, bearing indicator and grid location would also be a practical tool to add to the compass, however if this is possible or not I have no knowledge of.
The compass should be replaced with the only other HUD feature which I despise more than the minimap, the 3D map, this feature has no use at all in a game that want's to promote realism, it's real killer for the need to navigate using a map. Waypoints and enemy positions can and ARE beeing placed by squad leaders using the 3D map which is really ruining the whole point of using map navigation, this feature should be ridden of ASAP.
Luckily this feature (the 3D map) has nowhere as much impact of removing and it can be toggled, however it is still there and I view almost as a cheat (call me extreme).





On an aditional side note, I would like to draw the attention of the dev's to THIS topic, where exchanging the satellite photo maps with more realistic looking maps is dicussed that describe topography, building and vegitation better.
Adding such maps would IMO greatly enhance the ability to navigate across them since all things drawn are more distinguishable.
More detailed grids should also be added.



Please understand that is only a suggestion and not a demand, if somebody else can suggest a better solution to end this debate, I will happily agree with that as I'm sure there are flaws in my idea.
The main purpose of this post is try and reach a compromise which we can all or most of us accept.
Personaly I wouldn't go with my own suggestion, but I'm trying to find a middle ground which will please the majority, help contribute to find that middle ground.

EDIT: Me or anyone else referring to "Minimap" means the little map that is placed on your HUD, this has nothing to do with the big maps that you pull up when pressing M or Caps Lock.



PS: I know this post longer than my average one so please forgive all grammatical and spelling errors as I am not a native english speaker, also I'm very tierd, GOOD NIGHT and happy constructive discussion!
Last edited by Guerra norte on 2007-04-03 14:48, edited 1 time in total.
Crunchieman
Posts: 58
Joined: 2007-03-17 00:34

Post by Crunchieman »

Very good idea man! I like the very simple and realistic layout you made there. The compass should be somehow connected to the map tough.

Anyway I noticed people saying, for example, "Area E-7 has an enemy rally point set, take it out!" As some of you may know, e7 is the cordinance (sp) in the big M map. Perhaps if a solider spots a an enmy hostile that whole square flashes red for a short time. I personally would like to see this mainly because I like using the cordinance (sp) of the big M map.



I know how ya feel guerra, I'm foreign (sp lol) too. Hehehe
Exel
Retired PR Developer
Posts: 145
Joined: 2006-01-27 13:23

Post by Exel »

Without minimap you just give an edge to people who play so much that they memorize every map by heart. I'm not sure if that's what we want.
Copy_of_Blah
Posts: 195
Joined: 2006-05-14 21:55

Post by Copy_of_Blah »

I play a lot so maybe I would qualify as one of those people. I do like what you have there Guerra norte.

I have a question for you though. Would the squad map zoom out to display a squad member who has wandered off?


I have my own take on this. Not nearly as thought out as yours I admit.
I was just thinking it would be nice to extend the minimap up in the top right and squeeze it ...well not squeeze it so much as cut the sides off to make a longer and narrow field of view. So you can see only what is right in front of you. You would be able to see further out on the minimap but not much from the sides and nothing at all behind you.
Image
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$kelet0r
Posts: 1418
Joined: 2006-11-15 20:04

Post by $kelet0r »

Image

Beautiful - almost like you read my mind to be honest. The only thing I envisioned differently would be having a heartbeat monitor instead of a squad minimap (which is a bit useless in all honesty - I still pray that the Devs will have a prompt 'return to formation' if you move more than 20m from your squad leader which is so unbelievable vital for public play and squad cohesion imo I don't know how people resist it at all :( - and far more effective at encouraging a squad of faceless strangers to move, work and fight as a unit). Something like this - green and steady for full health, yellow and fast for bruising caused by body armour absorbed impacts, orange and erratic for bleeding, red and wild for near death.
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Dylan
Posts: 3798
Joined: 2006-05-29 00:41

Post by Dylan »

Guerra norte wrote:Can a moderator PLEASE delete the post I'm quoting including this one as it has nothing to with the topic.

Thanks.
Roger.
$kelet0r
Posts: 1418
Joined: 2006-11-15 20:04

Post by $kelet0r »

Lol wth?
I was agreeing wholeheartedly with him - his vision is my vision bar one item
El_Vikingo
Posts: 4877
Joined: 2006-11-27 01:50

Post by El_Vikingo »

Couldn't the GPS be removed. SO one would have to press "M" to orientate himself.


Holy shit!

That health meter just gave me another idea.

When you get hit. The tunnel vision effect should be implemented.

What I'm thinking of, is that, that tunnel vision should not disappear. (taking away the problem of pinpoint accuracy when almost dieing.

The tunnel vision should be directly proportional to damage undertaken.
Image

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=Romagnolo=
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Joined: 2006-12-29 14:52

Post by =Romagnolo= »

Its so simple. A soldier doesnt have a small map floating in front of his face. If he needs to find himself in the battlefield, take the map out from his pocket, see what he needs to see, then put it back.

The same thing in the game, press "m", see what you need to see, them press "m" again.
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Rick_the_new_guy
Posts: 291
Joined: 2006-12-01 17:01

Post by Rick_the_new_guy »

Excellent thread. Well written.

I also long for a change in the H.U.D.

Baby steps need to be taken to be sure.

Realism and gameplay must be the focal points.

We must reward the team (persons in a squad) and punish those how are A.W.O.L. (lone wolfes who do not squad up)

I believe a more realistic H.U.D. change should slow the gameplay down (IMO the gameplay speed is nearly at the pace of vBF2) but not frustrate players.

Will the mod lose players because of these changes? yes. Hopfully these are the lone wolfes and those who do not like to play the game a little more slowly than vBF2.

Will the mod add players and keep the same ones with a more realistic H.U.D.? yes. Hopfully these are TEAM players who will not drop the mod when the next eye candy/shiney game comes out. Why? because the mod is tailored to their likes and they like the gameplay.

Here is my idea I have posted at least once in the PR forums

__

IMO, the vBF2 HUD really is the teams biggest asset.
In real life, the CO spends a lot of their time post initial deployment making sure everyone knows were everybody is at and not killing each other.
When you have four grunt squads, two jets on call, and a couple of gunships, arty on station, this is a big chanllege.
Actually in real life, the platoon leader has staff officers from the Company and Brigrade helping him out also and telling him/her stuff.

Anyway, my point is the HUD allows the pace of action to be speeded up because the team is getting instant info on each others position, something that is taken for granted by the players. Truly amazing stuff IMO.

In RL, the CO is going to tell, other squad leaders what other SL are doing most of the time. Espically if it is in their Area of Operations. Now, with these small maps (Al Bas is a HUGE BF2 map, but the AO is confind), everyone is in the same area of operations. Therefore, the CO is going to tell every SL what the other one is doing.

Why not just have each SL the ability to see other SLs orders by having them show up on the map (press M) for all the squad leaders to see instantly all the time? Hell fire, if lone wolfes who are not with the team show up on the H.U.D. (A.W.O.L.) why wouldn't SL orders be available to all those in a commonding position? I mean, come on. Yet another example of the frustration I have with the vBF2 set-up game.
Granted this is not as bad as having a chopper that seats 6 instead of 7, but it is up there.

Here is my HUD and map (press M) set up with dots and order icons. Keep in mind, the HUD stays still does the same thing (Situational awarness) but with a little tweaks.

CO= sees all SLs and their current orders (just like now) . (does not see squad members or lone wolves)
Prevents micromanegment of the CO on individual Squad members.
(CO:"uhh, have that dot beside you move to the west more, please." "Yeah, I need that bridge defended better.")

Get that stuff out of here. You told the SL to defend the bridge, let them do it already, they know what is going on at the ground level.

SL= Sees their CO and fellow SLs and their CURRENT ORDERS. Furthermore, they see their squad members on the map. (They do not see other squad members on the HUD, communication is increased, game is slowed down.) Note: A SL can see up to 14 dots on the screen. 1 CO. 8 Other SLs. 5 members in their squad.

IRL, there is a lot of radio communication between SLs and COs. Allowing the SL to see other SLs attack coordinates on the Map, much like the name tags that appear over our heads will improve sit awarness. This will also allow us to get around the SL not having a channel to communicate with each other.

Plus, a SL and check the orders of another SL when they pull their map up and see that he/she has put attack coordiantes on where one of his fire-teams are at. (Prevents friendly fire).

SM= Sees their SL and fellow squad members and their current orders. (They basically see only five other dots on the HUD, at the most. This will allow them to focus on their goal and further depend on their SL to make sure they do not get wasted.)

teen wolf= Sees nothing! Nothing!

Blank the lone wolf, they are A.W.O.L., therefore they know nothing about what is going on.

__

here is a second HUD set-up.

Have everything as is now or with my first option, but when a player is 30-50 meters away from another person they disapear from the HUD, except Squad members.

This will allow multible squads to work together as they should in PR.
Last edited by Rick_the_new_guy on 2007-03-31 18:22, edited 1 time in total.
(PO3) Marcinko_R. (BF2 PR .609) Squad Member
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Squad Member pledge to their SL:http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...ad-leader.html
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Commander pledge to their SL:http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...d-leaders.htm
danthemanbuddy
Posts: 842
Joined: 2006-11-12 19:07

Post by danthemanbuddy »

Make it like Vietcong was. You didn't know where you were, you pulled out a map M, and then tried to make out where you were by landmarks, and other things.

If our M map becomes more detailed, then it would be realistic as you would need to communicate via comm rose (voip) to find out where you teamates are.
El_Vikingo
Posts: 4877
Joined: 2006-11-27 01:50

Post by El_Vikingo »

Lone wolves? I have neever seen any of them. What I do see though are people joining a squad snatch the Sniper kits and Run off.
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ubiquitous
Posts: 115
Joined: 2007-03-02 21:53

Post by ubiquitous »

I like the suggestion Norte. I think the compass should take the form of a tape, like the one that's embedded in the current mini.map That way it'll take up less space. I also think that the hud should be hidden by default, and you should have to hold a key to see it—just like you hold tab to see the score card. That would give you a nice clean 'real looking' view, with the hud within easy reach. Would also stop people relying on the hud during combat since it would probably be too hard to show the hud and aim at the same time.
Why not just have each SL the ability to see other SLs orders by having them show up on the map
Yes, I posted this idea a few weeks ago. Should definitely be put in.
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MADTKBOY
Posts: 76
Joined: 2007-02-24 22:29

Post by MADTKBOY »

I duno about that idea Norte...it still seems to take away too much situational awareness...Why dont we simply move the minimap to a handheld gps which can be placed in a weapon slot? As in press 7, and you pull out a hand held gps which has all the exact same atributes as the minimap including zoom. The only difference is this time, the gps is no longer held on the top right of your screen permanently by your third hand, and consulting your gps mid combat would no longer be a smart idea because you need to hold it with your hands? This seems reasonable in terms of realism (for all those hardcore PR guys), and will not deter too many new and willing players, BUT will deter lonewolf whores who need the vBF2 minimap advantage...If we can combine this with enemy spotted markers that do not constantly auto refresh update the whereabouts and facing of the spotted enemy, I think this would not be an unworkable idea...As for snipers...well, we DO need one or two of those a team, and I do see how this would improve them too. Snipers will now have to find a good spot to setup, and be well prepared to take out targets (need communication since markers of enemies are no longer permanently displayed top right of screen, when looking at gps they cannot fire weapon, and enemy markers no longer auto update)
Oh and did I mention having a handheld gps you need to pull out to use is cool? =p
Guerra norte
Posts: 1666
Joined: 2006-07-19 17:37

Post by Guerra norte »

People don't seem to understand the difference between Minimap and "M" or Caps Lock map....
El_Vikingo
Posts: 4877
Joined: 2006-11-27 01:50

Post by El_Vikingo »

Remove = Minimap
Keep = Pull out Map
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::Major_Baker::
Posts: 406
Joined: 2006-11-22 01:06

Post by ::Major_Baker:: »

uh, how did you get the spam text to show up in the bottom left of your screen?
Was that photo edited too?
Guerra norte
Posts: 1666
Joined: 2006-07-19 17:37

Post by Guerra norte »

::Major_Baker:: wrote:uh, how did you get the spam text to show up in the bottom left of your screen?
Was that photo edited too?
Yes it was edited via Photoshop.
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