The "sniper" debate..

Artnez · Post by **Artnez** » 2005-09-19 07:47

Out of curiousity, is PR planning to include actual sniper classes or designated marksman for squads?

A designated marksman (as far as I know) wouldn't wear a ghillie.

A sniper could.

Scribble · Post by **Scribble** » 2005-09-19 09:40

Designated Marksmen might be more conducive to gameplay than actual snipers given the temptation to give the latter perfect accuracy 50 cals.

Acidcrash · Post by **Acidcrash** » 2005-09-19 10:29

personally, from playing it online a fair bit recently, instead of replacing the sniper with the marksman outright, have a limit of (for example) 1 sniper per side when in 16/32 player servers, thus you dont have an army of snipers resulting in a sniper fest. then also have marksmen, again, limit how many - perhaps to a ratio of other classes?

bpwelch · Post by **bpwelch** » 2005-09-19 10:53

What Acidcrash said about limiting the amount of snipers you have makes sense on a couple levels; on one level in real life you do not have that many snipers, and on the other level it would provide well-balanced game play.

-bp

Beckwith · Post by **Beckwith** » 2005-09-19 15:34

i think it will depend on the map but dont be suprised if you see both

Artnez · Post by **Artnez** » 2005-09-19 18:18

Well, me being one of the best snipers on BF2 servers, I have to say that sniping is def. needed in this game.

Commonly, you'll notice too many snipers that finish off a round with 2 kills and 20 deaths. They're just learning.

The good, trained (have practiced), snipers always go beyond a 3:1 kill :d eath ratio. Although ratio doesn't matter that much, it still means you are killing the enemy.

Another important thing to consider is that a sniper can really piss off enemy forces. Just a few days ago, I racked up 36 kills and 2 deaths on Sharqi Penninsula, when the entire clan decided they would go after me.

They knew where I was, that was obvious.

Instead of fighting back, I ran and took cover in various tricky places as to not be seen. I would pop up my head and fire off a few shots to grab attention and ran again. The goal wasn't to get kills, but to suck them into the corner of the map. It was all very intense.. but when it was over with, I realized I have just taken a tank, 4 infantry and an AH helicopter to the far western sector of the map.. and kept them there.

A few minutes after this happened our team had control of all flags.

So, as you can see, a sniper extremely usefull in game. The only thing a sniper cannot defend himself against are medium-heavy armored vehicles -- and if his team has appreciated his cover fire all round, they'll dispose of that threat when asked.

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Oh, and regarding limiting snipers to one map, I think the only reason you are saying this is because you dont play as sniper like I do -- so you really dont care if you dont get that class.

I pride myself in playing sniper ALWAYS (unless its completely ridiculous to grab the class.. ie: all medium-heavy vehicles on map).

So if I jump onto a server and see some joe shmoe, who cant think of any other valid tactic than to place claymores on the edge of stairs (stupid idea, by the way), has the only sniper class and I have to wait for him to get noobified. Well, that just isn't fair :]

I think we should leave all classes open for tactical diversity.

If an entire team is stupid enough to go all-sniper, they won't be of much help as non-snipers anyway.

Post by **Wolfmaster** » 2005-09-19 18:44

^agreed, but since this is a realism mod there will probably have to be a system of class limitation. but if such a thing will be added it should be so that a player with the highest kill :d eath ratio in a certain class should get the first pick for that class. i.e. the good snipers get to pick the sniper kit first.

Acidcrash · Post by **Acidcrash** » 2005-09-19 18:56

not at all am I one who wouldnt care if I didnt get the class, I too, play sniper heavily, but I have seen its turned into sniper vs sniper fests... On a 16 man server the other night, there were were more sniper than any other class at one point and the snipers were dominating the game even when we agreed to cut back abit. All I was ssuggesting was to limit it to give the other classes a fighting chance of survival.. several people I introduced to the mod the other night are rather put off by the fact that snipers dominate the game so much, but let me stress it doesnt bother me as I can hold my own in a sniper vs sniper fight, but my 51:8 ratio the other night along with the 42:11 ratio of a sniper on the other team was showing the snipers need to be limited (not in ability, but in numbers)

at the end of the day, thats my view and it wouldnt suprise me if someone didnt agree

edit: regarding if a team want to go all snipers then not being much use as non-snipers, perhaps, but if they are in effect forced to go another class for a while, they will improve and adapt (hopefully atleast)

JoW · Post by **JoW** » 2005-09-19 21:16

Personally I think the limit to any class is not a very good thing. Well it goes different depending on what youre playing, if youre in a clan enviorment leaving the freedom of choise would be alot better where in a public enviorment it usually creates chaos no matter what because no one really cares for playing as a team. Its all about stats, good think it cant be ranked.

I think the reason why people pick sniper is because of the high damage it produces, wich it should be producing but the ability to fire the rifle is way to easy. In BF2 there are no real skills involved in actually sniping, there are no breathing effects and even this can go horribly wrong if not done properly.

A sniper should have the following aspects to it for sure.
- Since the game doesnt have a wound feature where you can disable a soldier most high calibre sniper rifles (7.62mm) should have 1 shot to kill 100% DMG no matter where you hit. If there was a wound system blowing of a legg would basicly render a soldier out of combat until a medic could get to his aid or he would bleed to death. A chest wound or a head shot would definitly kill someone.
- Breathing system, the scope is never 100% still unless the sniper is using drugs (something alot of snipers does to increase accuracy). But to perfect the breathing you should have a hold breath button to give you those 1-3 seconds of a nice clean stillness before you pull the trigger. And youd have to time the hold breath to an inhale or exhale. This means no one can get that perfect accuracy and just shoot like crazy to get kills.
- Magazine change time should be increased to about 2 seconds more.

Its when a job is challenging to master its fun to play, even now as I am a primeary sniper in my clan I wouldnt call myself a expert sniper as im now trying to work as a sniper in a team rather than solo. Its pretty fun, its basicly just for the challenge. In BF2 any prick can hide somewhere and pop targets from anywhere because its to damn easy. And for jobs saying that to many snipers makes it unfair, the minute you decide to play as a team taking out snipers wont be a problem. Decoy and a flanking team.

These are my views as im really interested to see how this mod turns out.

NOTE! Hope you guys turn down the speed phase of this game, in BF2 there is no walk function and its stupid, no one jogs and fire their weapon in a real life situation cous the minute you trip on full auto you would prolly have wasted your whole squad. Sometimes the trigger can lock up and then youre screwed.

Artnez · Post by **Artnez** » 2005-09-19 21:54

JoW wrote:I think the reason why people pick sniper is because of the high damage it produces, wich it should be producing but the ability to fire the rifle is way to easy. In BF2 there are no real skills involved in actually sniping, there are no breathing effects and even this can go horribly wrong if not done properly.

You completely disagree.

The reason people pick the sniper class is because:
a) They think it will be easy.
b) It's cool (ghillie suit, elite shooter, etc)

It's all about skill.

Like I said, I am one of the best. Sounds cocky, but it's true

If you are sniping and try to take me down, I will make your sniping experience very un-nerving.

If you are not sniping and I am, I will harrass you make you chase me.

The problem is that most snipers do not play for the team, they play for themselves. They think they make a difference when they kill someone, when, most of the time, they really dont make any difference at all.

The point I am trying to make is that most snipers in BF2 are completely useless at the moment (hense why all clans think the sniper class is useless). They dont understand that there is way more to sniping than climbing to an elevated position and placing a claymore at the base of the ladder.

Post by **BrokenArrow** » 2005-09-19 23:18

if your spotting things out and bogging down teh enemy you are by no means useless, not even in BF2. In PR they will become even more important.

class limits are needed cause you dont want it to become a war between snipers or auto riflemen and you dont want everyone being a pilot or tanker or whatever other classes eventually become part of PR.

JoW · Post by **JoW** » 2005-09-19 23:21

So you basicly play sniper to hide and run away from people to make an opening to get flags. Sure that is a nice gesture for a team, but this is far from a snipers tasks in a war. Snipers as I have learned are excelent recon soldiers as well as taking out the rank structure or vital targets. They arent usually used as bait, and I do think sniping in this game is to easy. Once you have the base controlls down its pretty easy to shoot at even running targets.

When you can take a sniper rifle and play as an assault there is something wrong with the aiming controlls in this game. That is what im refering to as to easy, you might be good at hiding and running away and even killing people. But if you do what youre supposed to do with a system like breathing you would have a much harder time mastering a job like this. Any cracker can hide in a bush or in tall grass, pop up cap a few people then run away. It would not be so easy with a wobbling sight when you rushed up to shoot someone. And with realistic damage when you pop up like a frustrated rabbit trying to hit something without focusing your shot you would probably be dead before you could say swiz chese.

When the scope is steady, its easy being a sniper in this game. And if they add more realism like target/distance youd even have to track your shot properly. Now as long as your crosshair is over someone it will hit.

Post by **BrokenArrow** » 2005-09-19 23:35

my point exactly... just said much better.

Artnez · Post by **Artnez** » 2005-09-20 00:55

JoW wrote:So you basicly play sniper to hide and run away from people to make an opening to get flags. Sure that is a nice gesture for a team, but this is far from a snipers tasks in a war. Snipers as I have learned are excelent recon soldiers as well as taking out the rank structure or vital targets. They arent usually used as bait, and I do think sniping in this game is to easy. Once you have the base controlls down its pretty easy to shoot at even running targets.

JoW, did you even read my post?

I was bringing about a great example of how a sniper could be useful to the team. It's hard to comprehend how people can twist something up so bad that it seems like I said something completely different.

I never said that I intentionally act as bait. In fact, bait was never even mentioned. When someone acts as bait, they are normally pulling someone into a trap. At that particular moment, I acted as a decoy for a tank, a helicopter and some infantry.

How is that wrong tactically? I took a large contingent of their forces away from the battle on my own. Our team then dominated the air and ground, allowing us to take all of the flags.

Anyway, I could do the same thing you are doing now. I can easily take any idea and completely invalidate it by saying that, in real life, it doesn't work that way.

JoW, you cannot completely simulate real life in BF2.

I already brought up topics regarding giving squad leader distinguishable patches so that snipers can do what they do in real life... take out high priority targets.

Regarding recon, that is one of the main things that I do in game. I spot anything and everything I see as I am usually at an elevated position and have a better view than most.

In the real world, the military does not adhear to any rules (albeit UN policy, but I hope you know what I mean). You do what you have to do to win. They wouldn't say to themselves "Ok, he's a sniper, this is what he does.. and he shouldnt do anything else, even if it seems completely logical and helps the war effort".

The reason a sniper would not act as a decoy/distraction in real life, is because it's not practical.

In BF2, it is practical, so if I have the opportunity to distract a large force, I will most definitely do it.

So, in closing my good friend, the key to sniping (which is what makes a good sniper, like me, good in game), is diversity. You have to adapt to the situation and not stick a single guideline. Another key is have a good feeling of the battlefield. You need to be able to predict everything. You need to memorize who is in the server and how they act. You have to know when to move and when to stay put, when to set traps and when to let it go, when to expose yourself and when to stay in cover for a while. You have to know the maps like the back of your hand and you have understand to the human psyche to a small degree so that you can predict their movements.

twisted · Post by **twisted** » 2005-09-20 01:26

i suggest having the gun 'wobble' in a rhythm like it does in real life (due to breathing, gravity, muscle fatigue, etc) and while the sniper is 100% accurate he must time his shot to perfection. the only time a gun is turly still is when it is in a vice. even on a bipod it still moves slightly due to breathing, muscle control, etc

the best get a rhythm going and know when to make the shot.

that way skill and patience is needed and after a while only the best will choose the gun so no need for class limits.

also think a sniper should have to take time (say 30 seconds) to 'settle' his guns wobble to a predicatable rhythm.

worst 3 · Post by **worst 3** » 2005-09-20 01:58

i think there should be a wobble at all times but you can hold your breath to almost stop it but still be there some what and it move slower.

i dont know about a limit to the class maby a limit that is kind of high like a 16=3, 32=7 64=13 ( i played on a server with a 2 limit and is sucked, even more when the sniper was bad)

i cant dont understand why other snipers have not mentioned this, but when you get a head shot a medic can still heal them am i the only one that thinks it should be fixed and that it is dumb. i have the 50. cal snip and i try for head shots be it seems worth less to take that extra sec to get a head shot if you dont have to (i still try to get a head shot not sure if i do, it more fun and more chalangeing) any one else feel that way?????

{GD}Snake13 · Post by **{GD}Snake13** » 2005-09-20 12:00

Keep in mind, cause I've seen this neglected many times, anything you do to snipers must by done to rifleman in scale. Otherwise it is not realistic.

For example, if you make a sniper with a 4x scope have 2 inchs of wobble up and down, a soldier with an iron sights M16 should have 1/2 inch of wobble, etc

Scribble · Post by **Scribble** » 2005-09-21 14:56

{GD}Snake13 wrote:Keep in mind, cause I've seen this neglected many times, anything you do to snipers must by done to rifleman in scale. Otherwise it is not realistic.

For example, if you make a sniper with a 4x scope have 2 inchs of wobble up and down, a soldier with an iron sights M16 should have 1/2 inch of wobble, etc

Yup.

Mad Max · Post by **Mad Max** » 2005-09-21 18:47

Not quite. Sniper rifles tend to be heavier than assault rifles, and are more balanced when it comes to aiming when not prone or supported. Whilst you'd still "wobble" with an M16 or whatever it wouldn't be as much as it would be with a sniper rifle.

Although wobble on all weapons to a certain extent would be welcome. It'd slow the game down a little bit more to allow for longer more interesting fire fights, plus people would miss more adding to the realism factor.

Artnez · Post by **Artnez** » 2005-09-21 22:58

{GD}Snake13 wrote:Keep in mind, cause I've seen this neglected many times, anything you do to snipers must by done to rifleman in scale. Otherwise it is not realistic.

For example, if you make a sniper with a 4x scope have 2 inchs of wobble up and down, a soldier with an iron sights M16 should have 1/2 inch of wobble, etc

100% agreed with that.