reduced recoil for 5.56 guns (semi only)

[El_Vikingo]

btw, just interested.
How many of you guys who seem to know everything you need about recoil have actually fired a weapon before?

Recoil isn't the same for everyone.

[Randleman5102]

Recoil isn't the same for everyone.

True, my friend thinks some guns kick like a mule. I go to the firing range and fire the same gun and its not that bad.

[sekiryu]

Soldiers are usually trained to the same standard though, so that wouldn't be much of an issue.

[arneboe]

"How many of you guys who seem to know everything you need about recoil have actually fired a weapon before?"

I have fired a lot of weapons in different calibres.. to list some

Mauser 98k 7.92x57
AG3 7.62x51 (+ alot of different bolt-action, semi and full auto weapons in this calibre)
HK SL8 5.56x45 (.223 Remington)
MP5 9x19 (para bellum)
Glock 17 9x19 (para bellum)
Colt M1911 .45
MG3 7.62x51

Various .22 rifles and pistols/revolvers
Various 11, 12 and 16 guage shotguns


+ some other weapons don't bother to list all..

i think i have been shooting for about 15 years...

[VipersGhost]

hehe yeah, I think this is the wrong Forum/Mod to be asking that "How many of you have shot a gun" question .

*inserts obligatory wink*

[sekiryu]

HK SL8 5.56x45 (.223 Remington)

5.56 NATO and .223 Remington are technically different catridges...

[arneboe]

5.56 NATO and .223 Remington are technically different catridges...

i know, but the .223 Remington cartridge does have the same external dimensions as the 5.56x45mm NATO military cartridge, and as it seems all the people here are as informed as others i wrote .223 Remington as well as 5.56x45 ..

"the NATO 5.56 does have thicker brass casing than commercial cases, which reduces the powder capacity, and the NATO specification allows a higher chamber pressure. Test barrels made for 5.56mm NATO measure chamber pressure at a the case mouth, as opposed to the SAAMI location. This difference accounts for upwards of 20,000+ psi difference in pressure measurements. That means that advertised pressure of 58,000 psi for 5.56mm NATO, is around 78,000 psi tested in .223 Rem test barrels"

quoted from wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56x45mm# ... _Remington and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56x45mm

not that this really have anything to do with the question in the thread..

[mammikoura]

Recoil isn't the same for everyone.

yes I know.
And the reason for asking it is simply because overall there are just so damn many guys in the internet who think they know everything. Talking all about how this gun is good and this sucks because of the accuracy/recoil/reliability/etc and they have never even shot a weapon before. (and I'm not talking about this forums, I'm talking about the whole internet)

Myself, I've only shot a 0.22 pistol (I think ) and a 7.62mm hunting rifle. So I really don't have any idea what the recoil of a 5.56mm feels like. (which is exactly why I didn't post anything about how the recoil should be so it would be more realistic)

[arneboe]

i agree with the first post though and think that the 5.56 recoil should be lower on semi fire..

[Jonathan_Archer_nx01]

..

I think the difference is minor and it bothers me as you can see.

http://realitymod.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15697 - Dynamic recoil

http://realitymod.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16893 -
Similar recoils?

http://realitymod.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17995 -
Recoil of "5.56mm guns", Should it be reverted to 0.4 version?

[Top_Cat_AxJnAt]

the time has come, due to minor deviation from orginal post:

After the low recoil of .4 compared to .3, .5 has increased the recoil of a number of weapons for both single shot, burst and automatic fire.

In general, this change has been recieve very well by players (my self included) due to the increased requirement to take time to aim, general improvement in realism overall and balance.


However not all the recoils in .4 had a negative affect on realistic gameplay. The main example being the lower (compared to .3) single shot recoil on all assult rifles. This enabled players to fire both quickly but stil remain a decent level of accuracy in single shot mode. This inturn enable players to put down sustained suppressing fire becuase of the combinattion of high accuracy and continued fire made sticking your head up suicidal. This is turn, when combine with squad co-ordination made it possible to suppress the enemy with a great deal of ease and flank them. This tactic being at the heart of all modern warfare - should be encourage through gameplay mechanichs/features.



In .5 it appears specificaly for the M16 that the recoil is identical to .3 for both single shot and burst. This equates to an overall fairly significant increase in recoil for the weapon. The G3 also had an increase but this reflects the high powered round it fires, namely the 7.62mm.

This does seem appropriate when most other weapons recieved an increase in recoil HOWEVER 1) when directly compared to the new chinese assult rifle and 2) supressing fire tactic commented above, one questions this increase in recoil

1) The chinese rifle, i believe (but please correct me) fires a calibre round identical or very similar to the M16, however in game, it appears to have much less recoil when fire in single shot mode compared to the M16 in single shot mode. So why is this so, is my judgement wrong, is their a realistic reason due to the rifles design OR does one rifle actualy have too little or too much recoil???????

2) THe increase in recoil has meant that sustained single shot fire is much less accurate and the rate at which accurate fire can be put down is hugely less. This has inturn has meant putting down effective (not suppressing fire, but effective suppressing fire - does its job) has become amazingly more difficult. Therefore this inturn has meant the suprress and flank tactic significantly harder use - BAD NEWS!!!!!


I also realise the decreased in Support recoil has enabled suppressing fire to be put down more accurately by 1 man. But why the decrease in recoil for this weapon? Well becuase this reflects the fact that in real life they have stands/biopods of some kind to stabalize the weapon while firing in automatic mode when resting on top of an object. The BF2 engine can no fully simulate 2 different iron site recoils (what you see move) so a balance must be found, reflecting the ablity to lay down sustained but reasonably accurate fire while prone (.4 failed however .5 recoil enables such to happen).

But, 1 support per squad is generaly the max you can have. Therefore squads rely heavily on the standard assult rifle for suppressing fire. But in the case of the M16, it can not be fully relied upon to do so.

So inconclusion i ask that the Developers consider decreasing the M16 recoil to equal to .4 levels or greater but less than .3 levels.

that is a hell of a post, who ever orginaly wrote it.......... !

[sekiryu]

And the reason for asking it is simply because overall there are just so damn many guys in the internet who think they know everything. Talking all about how this gun is good and this sucks because of the accuracy/recoil/reliability/etc and they have never even shot a weapon before. (and I'm not talking about this forums, I'm talking about the whole internet)

I've had a PMC instructor try to tell me that the AUG "sucked"--I couldn't get him to elaborate. Apparently I knew more about the AUG then this "expert" did, and I've never even touched one, lol.

There are 2 types of know-it-alls on the net. The military-experienced guys who think they know everything but don't, then the un-experienced guys who think they know everything, but don't. The thing that kills me, is that the un-experienced guys who know much more on a certian subject than the military-experienced guys, just get shrugged off (more like flamed off).

[PRC_Heavy_Z]

if PR is going to make the M16 semi-auto fire with lower recoil, then they should do the same for other rifles, but I seriously don't see why they would change the M16 characteristics considering it is quite accurate as it is and the recoil (again) is low enough as it is.

BTW, regarding that long quote:

"The chinese rifle, i believe (but please correct me) fires a calibre round identical or very similar to the M16, however in game, it appears to have much less recoil when fire in single shot mode compared to the M16 in single shot mode. So why is this so, is my judgement wrong, is their a realistic reason due to the rifles design OR does one rifle actualy have too little or too much recoil???????"

whoever posted it originally of not played with the QBZ95s in the game very much because the semi-auto recoil on the weapon is as high as the AK47's recoil if not higher.

[arneboe]

if PR is going to make the M16 semi-auto fire with lower recoil, then they should do the same for other rifles

no.. point here is that the M16 with it's smaller calibre should not have as much recoil as the much more powerful G3 etc...

[PRC_Heavy_Z]

That is not what I meant... they should make the FIRST SHOT OF EVERY GUN a bit lower when shooting semi-auto if they are going to make this change, not so that only the first shot of 5.56 weapons is low while the other weapons' recoil is constant regardless of auto/semi. They shouldn't articulate a certain characteristic for only one gun; otherwise, that one gun will be as realistic as hell while the others are, well... not.

BTW, the M16 DOESN’T has the same/ more recoil than the G3 in PR, and I don’t see why people keep suggesting lowering the 5.56 weapons’ recoil, at this point those weapons (somewhat inaccurately portrayed) have the lowest recoil in PR.

[VipersGhost]

I just think they should make the guns as equal as possible to their real world counter parts. I dont like all of this "balancing" talk about..."well if they lower the 5.56...then they should lower the g3 too"....that is garbage that doesn't belong here unless its realistic. I dont care if it makes one gun better than another. The complete #1 focus of this mod is realism...and the gunplay is definitely something they can adjust and its probably already being done. Realism first...everrything else is just nonsense for the most part.

[PRC_Heavy_Z]

I just think they should make the guns as equal as possible to their real world counter parts. I dont like all of this "balancing" talk about..."well if they lower the 5.56...then they should lower the g3 too"....that is garbage that doesn't belong here unless its realistic. I dont care if it makes one gun better than another. The complete #1 focus of this mod is realism...and the gunplay is definitely something they can adjust and its probably already being done. Realism first...everrything else is just nonsense for the most part.

Yes, the whole point of PR itself and all these weapon recoil/accuracy/whatever's focus is try to bring realism, glad you made the wonderful discovery , and maybe you should read my post and put some thought into what I am actually saying. No where did I say "we should balance the weapons so they are all monotonously similar (sarcasm)", What I said was that if they are going to add a general firearm characteristic into the game, they shouldn't give only a certain gun or type of guns this characteristic and ignore the rest, that has NOTHING to do with “balancing” the way you mentioned it.

Just to prevent farther bemusement, this is what I mean by a general firearm characteristic: It is a trait or whatever you want to call it that applies to all firearms (such as recoil, accuracy, or muzzle climb). When a shooter fires an assault rifle semi-automatically, the shooter experiences less muzzle climb/recoil than when firing full auto. Therefore because of this, EVERY gun’s recoil when firing semi-auto (not rapidly) should be proportionally lower than its recoil when firing full auto/ burst. This does NOT, I repeat, does NOT mean M16/ 5.56 guns should have the same recoil as G3/7.62 guns.

READ THE POST CAREFULLY AND THINK BEFORE POSTING!!

EST-CE QUE TU COMPRENDS?

[ReaperMAC]

No need to start flaming. The G3 is getting an upgrade pretty soon so it will be interesting to see whether not the devs plan to reduce the recoil of that weapon, however, I do agree with tweaking the M16 recoil.

[Shining Arcanine]

first, please read my whole post before calling down firey judment upon me.

I think all 5.56 guns should have a slight recoil reduction when firing on semi-auto. IRL, american soldiers 'double tap' enemys but in pr this is impossible, because of the high recoil of 5.56 guns on semi. The problem with this is that semi would be used as a full auto at medium ranges. one solution for this is to make the gun "go back down" after the shot. currently every time you fire, you have to re-aim your gun by dragging it down after every shot.

devs, is it possible to make 5.56 guns go back down after the first shot, but not go down all the way if you shoot too rapidly? GRAW has a dynamic recoil system that i really like. you can double tap easily enough, but the gun becomes uncontrollable when you shoot is full auto or too fast of semi.
dont get me wrong, i like the fact that the gun does not 're-aim' itsel for you when you shoot, but 5.56 guns should be able to double tap.

P.S. i think 7.62 recoil is perfect right now. I also think 5.56 full auto recoil is perfect to.

I agree, the recoil is too high. In the video game America's Army, the M16 has much lower recoil on semi-automatic, such that it is possible to hit people with the M16 set to semi-automatic at medium range distances (100 to 150 meters). I did it in America's Army one game in a crouch position while moving sideways across the hallway in the building by the helipad on the SF Hospital Map while playing the assault side, hitting a marksman. He was approximately 100 meters away.

[VipersGhost]

Yes, the whole point of PR itself and all these weapon recoil/accuracy/whatever's focus is try to bring realism, glad you made the wonderful discovery , and maybe you should read my post and put some thought into what I am actually saying. No where did I say "we should balance the weapons so they are all monotonously similar (sarcasm)", What I said was that if they are going to add a general firearm characteristic into the game, they shouldn't give only a certain gun or type of guns this characteristic and ignore the rest, that has NOTHING to do with “balancing” the way you mentioned it.

(extra's removed)

READ THE POST CAREFULLY AND THINK BEFORE POSTING!!

EST-CE QUE TU COMPRENDS?

Dude this post and you first one were indeed quite different so dont get your panties in a twist if someone misunderstands you point. What you said and what you meant were quite separated. Of course I read your post and it didn't have much value originally, so thanks brother for the clarification...nothing new but good work still.