firefights end to quick ?

[El_Vikingo]

^^^^ @ The new guy. So unrealistic. Please don't compare PR with an arcade game!

Instead of creating bigger maps, why not shrink the soldiers?! Same view distance, but it seems further away.

Technically impossible, but a funny suggestion.

[00SoldierofFortune00]

explain? How is unrealistic for soldiers to remain with their unit at all times and for a squad to retreat when they take casualties?

LOL, you are way off. They don't stay that close. What if you want someone to go DMR in your squad and stay back and cover or the fireteam thing? 20M is like a death wish because it is so close. I want to lead my squad, not a stupid limit.

[TexLax]

AA fixed this but... can't be done on the BF2 engine because it just wouldn't work in gameplay

i lasted in fire fight for 5 minutes... then again it was with a tank that got cornered

[$kelet0r]

LOL, you are way off. They don't stay that close. What if you want someone to go DMR in your squad and stay back and cover or the fireteam thing? 20M is like a death wish because it is so close. I want to lead my squad, not a stupid limit.

there are only a max of 6 in a squad which is just over a basic fireteam - if you want to play fireteams find another squad to help assault. But the squad you control is just that - one squad, not 2 fireteams with 2 fireteam leaders. 20m is a good limit imo as it means that you can have your squad spread out a standard 10m between each other in a line.
And like I said, it's not like I want a magnet attached to the player so they stay 20m. If you want to move outside that limit YOU CAN. But you will get a warning prompt that you have done so advising you that you are straying. And in the end what you have is a limited realistic mechanic to compensate for your sergeant screaming - 00SoldierofFortune00 GET YOUR FUCKING DENSE *** BACK IN POSITION!
I swear the limited imagination of some ....

[youm0nt]

(DSF)Warrior']If only every game had the cover system of Rainbow Six Vegas, where you can take cover against anything. Leaning from cover, blindfiring around corners forcing others to take cover.

The problem with the Rainbow Six Vegas cover system is that you can see what's behind the next corner while leaning against a wall with the camera, which is unrealistic...

[eggman]

I dont support things that limit the tactical options of players, rather preferring to reward them for sensible tactical choices.

A lot of that is handled by the unforgiving nature of the game itself... generally if you stray off on your own you can end up spending a lot of time looking at the spawn screen. The scoring system and quartermaster systems can also be used to reward sensible play (as can many other elements within the game).

There is already too much message spam anyways.

wrt firefights.. yeah I agree .. they don't last long enough because:
1. you don't get put in a bag and buried when you die
2. maps are too cramped
3. engagement ranges are too short

People talk about CQB stuff .. interpreting that as narrow hallways a la Doom II. But realistically most military folks would regard the engagement ranges in most PR maps as CQB (or FIBUA / MOUT).

Hopefully we'll see some improvements in fire fight dynamics in the larger longer engagement range maps because good long firefights are an intended by product of those changes.

[SevenOfDiamonds]

Make Squad members something the SL has to request at a rally point. That would force people to stay alive.

[Top_Cat_AxJnAt]

Want to know how to make firefights last longer?????

BY DOING THE IMPOSSIBLE!

.............




sort of





Namely:



LEVELS:
- Minimum size is ALbasara (4km squared).
- View distances on average 1km, when weather conditions permit.


OBJECTS:
- The age old saying "know the difference between cover and concealment", or whatever it is! Namely, all walls, furniture, vehicles, plants and TREES can all be penetrated by the "right" caliber/type weapons.

WEAPONS:
- Iron sites take time to settle and therefore gain max accuracy and bullets fire exactly where the iron site aims
- Weapon accuracy can be increased by resting your gun against walls.
- Mags are dropped on the ground after being used and remain, like bullet casings for a good 10mins or more! A firefight is nothing with out bullets casing littering the whole good damn area!
- When close to another object, the weapon is brought upright or across the chest (like in V-con! thks to below!)

DAMAGE SYSTEM:
- Body armor around the torso protects against a large number of bullets, namely 3 - 7.62mm rounds and 5 - 5.56mm (roughly)
- Body armor ceramic plates can be replaced at supply vehicles and such.
- Limbs however take a single bullet to disable, each limb and the no. have major different affects on the player, namely in terms of ability to move, fire weapons and the accuracy of your firing
- The initial damage, causes significant short term shock, and multiple rounds to the central body armor plates can cause the player to be forced backwards or knocked down.

HEALTH SYSTEM
- No. of limbs damaged directly affects the amount of blood lost, with 1 limbs damaged causing minimal (namely 4 mins till death) and 4 limbs damaged causing massive loss (namely 1 min till death).
- Bandages are used to heal limbs, 1 bandage per limb. Each player carries 1 bandage, while medics would carry around 16 (4 per fire team member effectively).
- It takes around 5 - 10 seconds to apply 1 bandage and there is a wonderful animation to go with it!


SQUAD SYSTEM
- Squads specialize in 1 particular area, namely assault, support, engineer, crewman, pilot, sniper team (2-4 men MAX).
- Each specialized squad has access to certain special weapons, namely support squad has 7.62mm machine guns, assault squad extra frags ext. and pilot/crewmen squads can only have, wait for it........... ONLY crewmen or pilot kits!
- 8 players per squad, 2 - 4 man fire teams, 1 Squad Leader, 1 secondary fire team leader
- 2 types of orders, namely map based and visual/verbal.
- Map based orders allow multiple different waypoints and orders.
- Visual/verbal allow instant orders, given through both hand signals and spoken communication, they are instant. Orders include, halt, suppress, find cover, charge ext.
- COOLEST PART = when hand signal is issued, all near by players turn there head for an instant to see it OR where it is pointing but only those who are in visual range or can hear verbal command do so AND by clicking mouse button it can be ignored instantly.


COMMUNICATION
- 3 types of communication, namely pre-recorded verbal orders and commands (suppress, find cover), strait off speaking using VOIP (no radio and every fcking one can hear you with in hearing distance, can be drowned out by gunfire ext. - this is the sht we need in firefights! ) and finally, strait off speaking into a radio using VOIP (all in 8 man squad can hear and when specially selected, other squad leaders, CO, pilots ext.).




So a squad leaders looks at his map, selects a fire position to secure for its good cover and view over the surrounding land and issues the rout using multiple waypoints. The squad reach the position and spot an enemy squad 600m north east east of their position moving across semi open ground, broken up by small streams, ditches and lines of trees. Squad leader issues an instant "do not engage" order, followed by a "set up GPMG here" order!

Squad leader, marks out a 4 waypoint rout for fire team Alpha to take and briefs the FTL on the precise details through direct verbal communication.

"Engage, Engage" screams the SL, FT Bravo do so, with there GPMG, firmly resting on a rock. The enemy squad hit the dirts, crawling for any form of cover, 1 man makes it to a mud wall alive, too only to find 3 holes punched through it and 1 in his upper arm! "fucking hell he shouts" he shouts, through strait VOIP speech, so all his still alive squad members in a 15m radius can hear his outcry!

While the enemy squad scramble to find real cover and return fire, fire team Alpha, following the previously issued waypoint order leg it round to the North west, their FTL saying quietly to them all "hold fire till we are close enough to strike em with cold steal! jkes, just sht up and dont fire....YET!".
Fire team Bravo continues to throw as much fire as they can down on the enemy squad and by now, below them, scattered every where, are heaps of empty casings and mags and with every passing minute, the evidence of this fight mounts on the dry, dusty ground, with not even the sands of time, capable of wiping it away....................










ps. this is basicaly what i dream of PR to be like!

[RGG:Dale]

i think we can all learn from the famous game vietcong, which has longer firefights, i recon it does because you can lean out from behind cover also dieing is alot harder because of weapon sway.

and because when you go prone you have to aim to shoot(which would clear up the prone spamming)

also you have to patrol to your location by "walking" which you dont have in
BF2.

[KP]

Why do you have to write that stuff, Top_Cat? It seems every time I read one of your posts, I have an "accidental discharge"...

But in all seriousness. I have to agree. Lots of stuff that would be great, but, unfortunately, can't be done in BF2.

[zeroburrito]

they last so long in real life because....of your life. half the time they are shooting at nothing just so they wont get shot themselves. in a game you aren't as worried about yourself. so you take more shots, peek out more etc. everyone should shock themselves each time they die, i bet fights would last a lot longer then(maybe the cat eaters would still be playing the same though).

[Hides-His-Eyes]

there are only a max of 6 in a squad which is just over a basic fireteam - if you want to play fireteams find another squad to help assault. But the squad you control is just that - one squad, not 2 fireteams with 2 fireteam leaders. 20m is a good limit imo as it means that you can have your squad spread out a standard 10m between each other in a line.
And like I said, it's not like I want a magnet attached to the player so they stay 20m. If you want to move outside that limit YOU CAN. But you will get a warning prompt that you have done so advising you that you are straying. And in the end what you have is a limited realistic mechanic to compensate for your sergeant screaming - 00SoldierofFortune00 GET YOUR FUCKING DENSE *** BACK IN POSITION!
I swear the limited imagination of some ....

more engine limitations; there's no communication between squad leaders. Your idea would be impossible to execute for players.




I'm liking the idea someone posted about having to request squad members at rally points

[$kelet0r]

1. Force squads to stick together ALL the time as opposed to the voluntary current situation (infantry allowed to move no further than 20m from squad leaders - visual and audio warning prompt when they do)
2. When there is a casualty, the squad must retreat to a rally point and the squad leader must request the player then respawn to simulate carrying the injured to safety and evacuation. Otherwise the dead player must respawn at main base.

That imo would go a long way to changing the manic run-run, gun-gun mentality in the game. Hence not going to be popular at all.

This?

In reply to the below:

more engine limitations; there's no communication between squad leaders. Your idea would be impossible to execute for players.

I totally agree as I pointed out earlier - DICE shafted us in many ways ... although communication between two squads does not need to be complicated eg type Squad 2 plz cover as Squad 1 advance. And TS is useful for the more competitive situations. So there are always solutions despite the barriers that the BF2 engine creates...

I think I will be railing forever against the gameplay in PRM of having non stop firefights against one soldier at a time, rarely meeting full enemy squads in battle and the fact that nothing ingame encourages or forces a player to obey orders or stay with his unit, making squadleading more like baby sitting than anything else. But the Eggman has spoken ....

[00SoldierofFortune00]

there are only a max of 6 in a squad which is just over a basic fireteam - if you want to play fireteams find another squad to help assault. But the squad you control is just that - one squad, not 2 fireteams with 2 fireteam leaders. 20m is a good limit imo as it means that you can have your squad spread out a standard 10m between each other in a line.
And like I said, it's not like I want a magnet attached to the player so they stay 20m. If you want to move outside that limit YOU CAN. But you will get a warning prompt that you have done so advising you that you are straying. And in the end what you have is a limited realistic mechanic to compensate for your sergeant screaming - 00SoldierofFortune00 GET YOUR FUCKING DENSE *** BACK IN POSITION!
I swear the limited imagination of some ....

You think they have a limit in Iraq? No, if they have to improvise, they will. These limits you speak of are completely unrealistic, limiting(not just for fireteams, but for common sense flanking and avoiding a nade in the BF2 world), and a sorry excuse to make up for poor SLing by the Squad Leader. If the SL doesn't think someone is following him around, then he can kick them simple as that.

if you want to play fireteams find another squad to help assault.

If it was that easy, then I am sure you wouldn't be suggesting an area limit. How am I suppose to communicate with another squad using details when I can only use ingame chat?

I have 2 fireteams when I am patrolling an area(when I defend, I have people patrol the perimeter), reconing, or silently assaulting a base and you want to take that away? A squad in PR/BF2 isn't the same as squads in real life, so you cannot compare the two in terms of numbers.

I dont support things that limit the tactical options of players, rather preferring to reward them for sensible tactical choices.

A lot of that is handled by the unforgiving nature of the game itself... generally if you stray off on your own you can end up spending a lot of time looking at the spawn screen. The scoring system and quartermaster systems can also be used to reward sensible play (as can many other elements within the game).

There you go.

2. When there is a casualty, the squad must retreat to a rally point and the squad leader must request the player then respawn to simulate carrying the injured to safety and evacuation. Otherwise the dead player must respawn at main base.

The SLs still want to fight too, not just micromanage and hold other player's hands. If you are a good SL, you don't have this problem. I already have to do a lot to keep up with things, and having to worry about individual players spawning in would mess all of that up.

[$kelet0r]

You think they have a limit in Iraq? No, if they have to improvise, they will. These limits you speak of are completely unrealistic, limiting(not just for fireteams, but for common sense flanking and avoiding a nade in the BF2 world), and a sorry excuse to make up for poor SLing by the Squad Leader. If the SL doesn't think someone is following him around, then he can kick them simple as that.

You completely miss the point (as always) You 1) make my limit idea sound like there is razorwire surrounding the squadleader when I want to see a system that a) compensates for the lack of sensory awareness of where your squadmates are, b) simulates your NCO using hand signals or calling out a name to keep you in line or get your attention and c) reminds you not to go fuck off selfishly abandoning your squad. And it is as simple as just having a prompt appear on screen that when you see it and are playing properly will make you look around to see where your squad is and hopefully trot off to rejoin them making the prompt disappear.

However, if the situation requires it, you be a man and ignore the prompt if that is what your squad leader orders or is necessary in the situation. So you can still have your precious pseudo fire teams by simply using your own judgement. I really cannot understand your intransigence on this - anything that makes public play better should be embraced. If there is a better way I'd love to hear it but it sounds like you rarely squad lead any way so what would you know..

The SLs still want to fight too, not just micromanage and hold other player's hands. If you are a good SL, you don't have this problem. I already have to do a lot to keep up with things, and having to worry about individual players spawning in would mess all of that up.

It strikes me that you don't want a realistic game imho. To me the 1) the current situation for a good squad leader is nothing but baby sitting and micromanagement trying to keep a squad of strangers together against all the odds ingame. And 2) if a unit sustained even minor casualties in battle it would retreat - no question. Morale would be lower, teammates would want to get the wounded to safety and evacuation and the officer would want a replacement asap. But that realism is too much extra work for you? Seriously?

[eggman]

Unfortunately this potentially useful discussion has now gotten personal. Locked.