M16 advice

[workingrobbie]

I can understand your frustration JKRMAUI, and having just finished reading the article myself, it's a world of shit right now that's extremely hard to undo.
It's a vicious series of decisions, which at the time seemed logic, has now put US troops at a series disadvantage.

Basing my facts solely from that article (since I'm not a military buff) a logic decision to use the 5.56 in Vietnam because the majority of US troops were 'scared 18 year old boys' and they needed more bullets flying in the air then stopping power.
Now you have 800,000 troops armed with M16s. Say it would cost (and I'm pulling this figure out of my ***, it's just a guess) $1000 to either issue a new weapon or modify the exisiting (bulk discount). That's $800,000,000 -and being conservative. I know you can't put a monetry figure on human live, but in a war that's already killing the american economy, that's a a fair hit.

I'm not saying the government is justified at not changing to a more powerful round because of the cost, I'm just saying there are 2 strong sides to this argument and it isn't something to be worked out any time soon. It's going to take a long time to undo.

Back OT. Yes. The M16 ingame sucks in the name of reality. So do what the troops do - steal and enemy weapon.

[Jaymz]

You've just outlined my point. The 5.56mm is not as strong as the 7.62. So why do they have the same recoil? Reality and balance in this case are not mutually exclusive. If you're going to insist on not giving the M-16 a scope (how realistic can we get?), then how can you account for the low recoil of the G3? This is NOT being realistic and NOT balanced. If I were to use the same line of reasoning, I could have a 125mm chain gun, and on full auto it should be just as accurate as a mini gun (which need fixing also). Is that realistic OR balanced? According to this mod "yes". You have the time to make a dozen maps, give the tanks, APCs, and helicopters new weapons and somehow there isn't any time left to give ONE GUN an optic? And for that matter, you all spent so much time setting the longer view distances, but whats the point if we just are using iron sights? I don't really feel like debating anymore. I've made my case and that is that.

I SAID I AGREE ABOUT THE RECOIL, I'VE SAID IT SOOOOOO MANY TIMES.

[workingrobbie]

Jaymz']I SAID I AGREE ABOUT THE RECOIL, I'VE SAID IT SOOOOOO MANY TIMES.

hehehe...duuude.. I think I just heard your spleen and brain crack simultaneously.

[JKRMAUI]

hehe Poor Devs....*hug* you guys do a good job! This mod is the best FPS I've played in AGES!!! Its great...sure it has its little issues....but shit! Beats the hell out of Nilla!

[Doom721]

Hmm M16 Advice, well my idol bosco death with two legs...

He had a .4 video I think or a .3 video.... really old one, controlling burst fire is essential, I really hadn't used burst in anything but REALLY CQB's I mean like going in the stairway building with windows ( aka Mc Donalds, House of Pain etc )

Thankfully now I realized I can control the recoil better ( Having NO experience with a gun or war .... sometimes your not the brightest )

M16 advice? Well the G3 is nice and will be greatly improved with optics, but heck I can wait, ill just pick up the G3 rifleman kits ( Grenadier's possibly )
for the scope

Advice? .... Aim take fire, use the dang ironsights line up a lil bit, adjust to the in-game recoil figure it out even if it isn't 100% accurate to reality, if it can be done in a reasonable amount of time, it is considered and possibly done FOR FREE come on

Take it as it is, or leave it!

[sekiryu]

Mmm, G3 with HK79.....

[-=TB=-Tobakfromcuba]

m16?
ahhh, i remember..its that penalty that you carry when you missed to crab an enemys g3 or qbz

[sekiryu]

I guess if the M16 is a penalty, the M4 is a death warrant

[NaZar3TH]

5.56 will do the job just fine. Believe it or not, at normal combat ranges(sub 300m) the 5.56 is actually more lethal than the 7.62. It must be noted that while the 7.62 has more energy, when limited to ball ammunition, the only way the bullet can transfer large amounts of energy is by having the bullet tumble or fracture. Thats what happens wit the 5.56. It tumbles around, while the 7.62 sails through with little yaw due to higher energy.
however at >300m, 5.56 looses most of its muzzle velocity/stopping power. No doubt about it.

as for recoil,
the G3 should realistically have the most recoil of all AR's. AK47 being second, with the 101 and M16 series/british guns being the lowest recoil due to smaller casings. Damage for the G3 and 47 should remain relatively constant past 300m, while the 101,m16,and brit guns should loose damage past 200m.

however, most infantry in BF2/pr (other than snipers/dm) dont really engage past 200-300m(from what ive seen) so this really shouldnt be a problem.

but hey its their decision, so lets jus shut up an bear it. the m16 will get its chance later.

NZ

[OkitaMakoto]

Aiming is everything.

When you shoot, instead of bring your mouse up, bring it down to control the recoil. Single shot is the best way to kill, even at close range. Use it effectively. Control and accuracy is everything.

one thing i tend to do sometimes is actually just give in with the recoil and follow it up with my mouse, and sort of loop it back to where i'm aiming... like... I move up with it and... in a trippy way, i use the movement to just swing it out and under the target and it seems to realign rather nicely...god...3am..that probably makes NO sense...
windows update...might as well shut down anyway...g'night...

[OkitaMakoto]

Ha, mongols picture of the m16 reminded me of my old sig...maybe ill go back to that... the new rifle for the US forces.....

yes, the m16 has crazy recoil, but yes, it still kills if the bullets hit, and hit they do...... more or less...

[Jaymz]

5.56 will do the job just fine. Believe it or not, at normal combat ranges(sub 300m) the 5.56 is actually more lethal than the 7.62. It must be noted that while the 7.62 has more energy, when limited to ball ammunition, the only way the bullet can transfer large amounts of energy is by having the bullet tumble or fracture. Thats what happens wit the 5.56. It tumbles around, while the 7.62 sails through with little yaw due to higher energy.
however at >300m, 5.56 looses most of its muzzle velocity/stopping power. No doubt about it.

as for recoil,
the G3 should realistically have the most recoil of all AR's. AK47 being second, with the 101 and M16 series/british guns being the lowest recoil due to smaller casings. Damage for the G3 and 47 should remain relatively constant past 300m, while the 101,m16,and brit guns should loose damage past 200m.

however, most infantry in BF2/pr (other than snipers/dm) dont really engage past 200-300m(from what ive seen) so this really shouldnt be a problem.

but hey its their decision, so lets jus shut up an bear it. the m16 will get its chance later.

NZ

please allow me quote our moderately sober advisor kenwayy

"I seriously want to pimp slap every single moron that says the 5.56mm does more damage because it tumbles. SLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP!"

"The modern 5.56mm NATO round is NOT the same 5.56mm NATO round from vietnam. The modern round is referred to as 'New ball' and has a green tip. It penetrates better and fragments less. This is NOT what you want for effects on a soft target. The result is more akin to taking a pen and poking a hole straight through someone. Unless you hit something vital you aren't doing much. After seeing all to many times an insurgent take round after round after round and not going down for the count, I can say without question it is the most worthless cartridge EVER for anti-personnel."

[Jonathan_Archer_nx01]

Not for 0.6 at least...

I've said that many times. Good iron sights > Optics.

I don't know why devs decided not to include scopes for M16 in 0.6 but correct me if I am wrong, a brand-new M16A4 is going to be modelled, that means new iron sights, right?

[Jaymz]

I hope

[DirtyHarry88]

Advice? .... Aim take fire, use the dang ironsights line up a lil bit, adjust to the in-game recoil figure it out even if it isn't 100% accurate to reality, if it can be done in a reasonable amount of time, it is considered and possibly done FOR FREE come on

Take it as it is, or leave it!

I'll have to leave it, dunno how anyone can 'control' the recoil, worst case scenario is always in Basrah when you see an Insurgent running sideways to you, he doesn't see you, you shoot (miss every time) and he turns round and wastes you with his AK.

[Long Bow]

You have the time to make a dozen maps, give the tanks, APCs, and helicopters new weapons and somehow there isn't any time left to give ONE GUN an optic? And for that matter, you all spent so much time setting the longer view distances, but whats the point if we just are using iron sights? I don't really feel like debating anymore. I've made my case and that is that.

I'm with caboose on this one, we're going to stomp our feet, cross our arms and pout till we get what we rightfully deserve . As non paying but demanding keyboard jockeys we reserve the right to set the priorities of the mod and control the Devs decision making process. Further more my complete lack of understanding in the fields of modeling, skinning, audio, map design, etc. fully equips me to set the time table for the mod.

After reading through all the posts and picking out what the Devs have said I have concluded the following. The M16 is a WIP, ACOG is a WIP, the G3 is getting optics first -> deal with it, the dynamics of all the weapons are still a WIP and they fully realise this and are working on creating as "realistic" weapons as possible. We are only at 0.5, thats a long way from 1.0. The devs need our input for sure, they don't need us throwing little fits and demanding things

There, I'm done with the soap box someone else can get on now

[Jaymz]

bravo!!!

[Doom721]

I'll have to leave it, dunno how anyone can 'control' the recoil, worst case scenario is always in Basrah when you see an Insurgent running sideways to you, he doesn't see you, you shoot (miss every time) and he turns round and wastes you with his AK.

What I mean by controlling my recoil, is in burst mainly, where you fire the 3 round burst dragging down your mouse to make the 2nd and hopefully 3rd go where you want to go, as for single fire, I try not to shoot people moving across my virtual horizion, more so shoot at people going to and from my location

Yes if this is a basrah discussion, AKs are good in CQB, the M16 isn't as good as a full auto gun blasting you to hell. lol

Just gotta be patient and get into your "zone" where your playing and not just watching and occasionally messing up things

[G.Drew]

I'll have to leave it, dunno how anyone can 'control' the recoil, worst case scenario is always in Basrah when you see an Insurgent running sideways to you, he doesn't see you, you shoot (miss every time) and he turns round and wastes you with his AK.

thats happened all too many times

id like to see a re-modeled M16, id think it would be pretty sweet, i mean ive seen.....nothing!

[DirtyHarry88]

What I mean by controlling my recoil, is in burst mainly, where you fire the 3 round burst dragging down your mouse to make the 2nd and hopefully 3rd go where you want to go, as for single fire, I try not to shoot people moving across my virtual horizion, more so shoot at people going to and from my location

Yes if this is a basrah discussion, AKs are good in CQB, the M16 isn't as good as a full auto gun blasting you to hell. lol

Just gotta be patient and get into your "zone" where your playing and not just watching and occasionally messing up things

Yeah see I do pull down on the mouse but it seems to make minimal difference, doing it seems to work pretty well for firing a burst with the AK though at fairly close range.