I forsee a problem with .6

[Soulis6]

I dont think it will be as extreme as civilans throwing themselves into gunfire. I'm going to play as civs but i sure as hell dont plan on seeking out my death. If you die as a civilan it will be annoying to the enemy, but your squad/team will still be without your help, medical, mechanical, or otherwise.

I think its more going to give you relative safty from direct combat rather then provide a 'suicidal martyr' class.

[OkitaMakoto]

what all the people complaining about must fail to see is that you, the man with the rifle, have the ultimate say in whether or not you shoot.

civi ran in front of you and mr. taliban? hold your fire or shoot... your choice, beware teh_consequences...

civi used your grenade as a pillow? tough. try not using nades when there are civis nearby.

just a guess, but im assuming its pretty hard for forces in iraq to not kill civis... they prolly refrain from
a. throwing nades around corners or near civis, shooting next to a civis head unless they are FULLY aware of the danger and threat.
b. strafing blindly an entire city with 2 cobras and 2 a10's. (hell, theres enough team from those flying ******** anyway. i cant count the times i have seen text similar to: "STOP FIRING CHOPPER!!!! FRIENDLIES!!!! FRIENDLLIIIESS!!!!!!!! STOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!")

one thing, will the civs be able to give bandages to US forces? someone mentioned it ina passing comment... but im not sure as to its ability to be used... that would be nice... yeah, theyre on the insurgents "side" but they have the choice...thereby making them possibly od assistance to the US... like they said...scouting, giving away Spawn Car locales...etc... id like ot see this kind of idea worked on or discussed...

smile,
Okita

[MadTommy]

I just love everything that is being brewed up and considered for the insurgents.

For me it will bring great variance to the game. Such a damn sweet idea. With sooo many differing elements. I just want to rub my nose up Egg's bleep bleep for the minute, i'm getting a warm fuzzy feeling.

[ZanderArch]

one thing, will the civs be able to give bandages to US forces? someone mentioned it ina passing comment... but im not sure as to its ability to be used... that would be nice...

Yeah, I said that and it would work. The Bandage is a factionless item. Once it leaves your hand, it will heal who ever is the first one to it that doesn't have full health. Same as the ammo bags, since they have to be thrown they will resupply anyone in their radius.
The Medic bag probably won't. They have to be held and therefore probably be more discriminate dealing out their sweet sweet health. There's a slight possibility that it won't, I'm not sure, but 99.9% of the time, the medic isn't going to keep his bag out when a wounded enemy comes limping over to them for health.

As for aircraft whores. I'd gladly do what ever I could to get them to kill me while a civilian. They deserve more negative points since 9 out of 10 times that are pretty dang dumb (Can't count the number of them that crashed into Village while they were dive bombing.) and don't do their job of support and just go around randomly killing enemies and bombing flags their team are trying to take. </angry rant>

[Fat Zombie]

Oooh. We will be able to aid the coalition as civilians? This will be hilarious.

*throws rock*

"Aah!"

"Ooh, that looks painful. Would you like a bandage?"

*repeat, ad infinitum*

[jmull]

right now, most characters guns dont render at long range. how will you be able to tell if a insurgent is holding a gun or not at long rang?

Why not just wait and see what happens?

[eggman]

right now, most characters guns dont render at long range. how will you be able to tell if a insurgent is holding a gun or not at long rang?

The Civilian class colors are pretty obvious. If not sure.. er.. get a Marksman / Sniper to take a look and /or move in to closer range.

[Capt. Caveman]

I actually have serious questions about the civie class. Not to say that other peoples ideas aren't as serious.

Some basic questions:
- How will scoring for civies work? They should get points for dropping field dressings, repairing and helping construction.

- What's the skin going to look like? Woman in a burka, teenager, skinny person in ratty clothes?

- Can civies actually injure US/UK players w/ a rock? For example if the US/UK player was bleeding out/coughing?

- Will civies be able to form/join squads w/ insurgents?

If US/UK forces cannot kill civies, what happens when a civie stands in front of an insurgent, and the USMC opens up w/ a rifle. Would the insurgent be damaged?

I feel that US/UK forces should be able to kill civies. If a civilian involves themselves in a firefight, especially while assisting the insurgents, then they reap what they sow. If I smack a wild kodiak bear on it's nose, or throw a rock at an armed soldier, I shouldn't complain about the consequences.

I understand the logic of the civie class, and that US/UK forces shouldn't shoot civies, but I don't think it's realistic. I've read the forums about spawn delays and ticket loss.

I have a couple of ideas myself.

Killing a civie:
- damage to the US/UK player, dying causes normal ticket loss and respawn time penalty, plus TK penalty. For example, kill 3 civies, die, respawn w/ the standard time penalty, but at w/ -6 to -9 points.

But then there needs to be balance on the US/UK side:

- Civilian deaths should count as equal or more ticket losses for the insurgents.
- Insurgent players suffer the same spawn delay, 30s + 1s per death, regardless of what class (civie, insurgent) you play.

The effectiveness of the civilian class should be reflected by the player. So that a smart player can play this class and help his team win, but a fool who gets himself killed a lot will actually hamper his team/score.

On the other hand, the penalties for US/UK classes killing civies should be such that sloppiness/gun happiness can harm the TEAM effort, yet not cripple the player. A spawn penalty of 5 minutes, in my opinion, is beyond disruptive to the enjoyment and popularity of this mod.

For example:

Assume the ticket count is 10-US to 10-Insurgent. A US player in an A-10 bombs a structure, killing 5 insurgent and 3 civilians. That would be a loss of 8 tickets for the insurgents and a score of 4 (+10 for kills, -6 for TK) for the A-10 pilot, who would die (taken out of duty). That would leave the ticket count at 9-US to 2-Insurgent.

The US is in a position to win, the A-10 pilot has lost his plane, but still manages a positive score for the insurgents that he did kill. Does that sound balanced?

Just my $0.02. I like this mod. I'd like it to become more popular and maintain balance.

[Fat Zombie]

Yeah... Well, I don't really care about points, persay. Therefore, in your system I'm not going to mind gunning down civilians in their hundreds.
But if killing a civilian means that I have to wait (UP TO) an extra five minutes to respawn when I die, then I'm going to be careful!

It's not particularly like the civvies can do much damage. And besides, this is realistic; in Iraq, the usual situation is that the insurgents hide in crowds of civilians to protect themselves; that doesn't mean the coalition soldiers have the right to gun down the crowds to get the insurgents.

Besides, what's the point of being a civilian if you're going to be shot at by soldiers and you have no gun to fire back? As with no spawn time penalty, people are going to be shooting at the civilians, point loss or no.

I like that you're trying to make it a more balanced game, but we'll need to see it in action before we start campaigning for change.

(besides, I have a personal agenda; I want to play a civilian, but i'm not that good a player. But i'm a good civilian, I know that much! And the chance to be able to throw rocks at soldiers with impunity is brilliant, even if they do no damage. )

[SethLive!]

eggman']The Civilian class colors are pretty obvious. If not sure.. er.. get a Marksman / Sniper to take a look and /or move in to closer range.

reasonable enough
so classes render at long range now? guillie suits?

[Fat Zombie]

A friend of mine had a great idea which he already suggested but was ignored. I think it sounds great but I'm sure that you lot could find fault with it if you tried.

Basically, killing a civilian, instead of a penalty towards the killer, instead adds a ticket to the insurgent's ranks. So instead of causing a loss, it results in more tickets for the insurgents.
The reasoning behind this (and something that does sound correct, in my view), is that usually in real life, gunning down civilians in this kind of situation will create sympathisers towards the insurgent cause, and hence create more insurgents (there was a good game that had this message: Here it is). This sounds like a good way to model this effect.

And to counter the thought that I had about this - that adding tickets to the insurgents will mean that they never stop coming - the insurgents don't use normal spawnpoints, do they? They use the spawncars. So it doesn't matter how many spawnpoints they have, removing the spawncars stops them spawning. This might make the idea redundant, but it means that as long as the insurgents have spawnpoints, and civs are gunned down, they'll be able to continue.

A brilliant idea, I think; what about you?

[OkitaMakoto]

ohhh i like fatzombies idea, if it was worked on some more... but very nice.
but i like the current idea...the 5 minute respawn.. the US needs to learn that dealing with insurgents is not a normal war, one where you fly jets and choppers and bomb the shit out of everything... no no no.

someone asked, and i would like to know, will the rocks do damage? or just maybe make their screen blurry? i like the blurry idea... not sure how many armor laden soldiers die a year from rocks... wearing helmets and kevlar and whatnot... right?

but man, cant wait to be a civilian... its gonna be so fun...

[eggman]

reasonable enough
so classes render at long range now? guillie suits?

The Ghille suit is a *kit* geometry and NOT a soldier *body* geometry. Kit geometries are drawn at different ranges for performance purposes. We will probably try and tweak that in a future release.

The most obvious aspect identifying the civilian is the colors of the soldier body geometry.

[eggman]

- How will scoring for civies work? They should get points for dropping field dressings, repairing and helping construction.

not really much in the way of scoring for them, will look at it in a future release.

- What's the skin going to look like? Woman in a burka, teenager, skinny person in ratty clothes?

one of the existing models that has been reskinned with a green shirt and white pants. I'm not crazy about the look, but we'll revisit it in a future release.

- Can civies actually injure US/UK players w/ a rock? For example if the US/UK player was bleeding out/coughing?

yes, you can be killed with rocks.

- Will civies be able to form/join squads w/ insurgents?

join yes, form no. Civvys cant be squad leaders.

If US/UK forces cannot kill civies, what happens when a civie stands in front of an insurgent, and the USMC opens up w/ a rifle. Would the insurgent be damaged?

It's not a "cannot kill" it's a "should not" kill. In your example the Civilian would be killed and the player who committed the infraction would receive a +1 minute respawn penalty the next time they die.

[Desertfox]

A friend of mine had a great idea which he already suggested but was ignored. I think it sounds great but I'm sure that you lot could find fault with it if you tried.

Basically, killing a civilian, instead of a penalty towards the killer, instead adds a ticket to the insurgent's ranks. So instead of causing a loss, it results in more tickets for the insurgents.
The reasoning behind this (and something that does sound correct, in my view), is that usually in real life, gunning down civilians in this kind of situation will create sympathisers towards the insurgent cause, and hence create more insurgents (there was a good game that had this message: Here it is). This sounds like a good way to model this effect.

And to counter the thought that I had about this - that adding tickets to the insurgents will mean that they never stop coming - the insurgents don't use normal spawnpoints, do they? They use the spawncars. So it doesn't matter how many spawnpoints they have, removing the spawncars stops them spawning. This might make the idea redundant, but it means that as long as the insurgents have spawnpoints, and civs are gunned down, they'll be able to continue.

A brilliant idea, I think; what about you?

The +1minute to the guy who killed the civlians spawn time will also do that. If he kills a civilian the next time he dies he is gone for a extra minute which gives insurgents higher numbers because a US guy is gone.

[Hides-His-Eyes]

Ouch 1 minute?

I love this new plan

[eggman]

Killing a Civilain gives the killer a penalty AND gives the Insurgents a ticket bonus.

Capturing a Civilian (knifing them) gives the Civilian a respawn penalty AND gives the Conventional Army a ticket bonus.

[Hides-His-Eyes]

You guys rule

[ZanderArch]

eggman']Killing a Civilain gives the killer a penalty AND gives the Insurgents a ticket bonus.

Capturing a Civilian (knifing them) gives the Civilian a respawn penalty AND gives the Conventional Army a ticket bonus.

What? Noes!!! My plans for adding the infidels are ruined by their own greed! I'll never be able to turn my back on them before they capture me!

Will Civilians score kills and such the same way as everyone else or are they going to be some kind of "Pointless Team Supporter" making the class useful for the greater good and not for the individual?

Aw ****. I just noticed the Civilian won't even get a knife. No more dedicated Knife Only kit

[Fat Zombie]

Oh. So the idea that my mate suggested (the original thinker was a dude called cHeal) is already implemented? The insurgents will get a ticket bonus for any civs killed? Fantastic.