Firefights Inf vs INf What Happened?

[00SoldierofFortune00]

Not in the Armed Forces, so don't quote me on this, but I'm pretty confident standard procedure isn't to hit the deck when confronted face to face with an armed hostile. You would always shoot first, not dive, because diving SHOULD limit your ability to return fire immediately. That's the whole damn problem with instaproning.

And I'm damn sure that SOMETHING could be done about it, I really don't buy "It's hardcoded sorry!". Can't add a delay for shooting if you prone? Can't add a sprint effect? Maybe these ideas really can't be implemented, but there's got to be some way to reduce it's effectiveness.

Ingame, people prone dive from 5 feet away and in CQB which isn't realistic at all. If you are at 300M though, then that is much more realistic, which is why we should get away from the Karkandy stuff of CQB since there really is no solution to it unless all weapons are designed like the SAW zoom.

Once Light AT and Grenade Launchers are fixed though, engagements in urban environments should be better. But what needs to happen is that we need more rooftops or balconies in urban maps so that one rooftop cannot dominate. That would also make firefights longer as opposed to just fighting in the streets. It would be a battle between balconies and then once the ground levels are cleared out, then infantry would move through the semi clear streets.

[dbzao]

I think SoldierOfFortune said it all.

Prone diving in CQB is very bad, annoying and unrealistic. But diving when you are getting shot from a distance and got suprised it's fine and natural.

The grenade launcher should only be called noob tube when it's used in CQB too. The same with the RPG. There's nothing wrong in using them, the problem is people running and shooting at their feet to kill the enemy. In real life the launched grenades would only explode after 30 or 40 meters.

Since we can't mod the players, we are limiting their availability so we don't get too much of that bad behavior and have more realistic balance of weapons.

Can't wait to play 0.6 with you guys

[EagleEyeLG]

SO MANY OF YOU ARE LYING IN THIS POLL!

80% of the people I come up against, insta-prone and fire (I am guilty of this as well. Going to take advantage of it while other people can and do). So this 75% to 25% is BS.

[Smitty4212]

Ingame, people prone dive from 5 feet away and in CQB which isn't realistic at all. If you are at 300M though, then that is much more realistic, which is why we should get away from the Karkandy stuff of CQB since there really is no solution to it unless all weapons are designed like the SAW zoom.

Completely agree, of course hitting the deck is realistic when you are hitting the deck for cover. Hell, even at close ranges, if you're just hitting the deck to get behind something-- that's completely fine. The problem is your ability to literally shoot while you are diving, and have no problems hitting the ground and maintaining that fire (accurately).

There needs to be some sort of delay between when you press the button for prone, and when you can fire (I'm thinking a minimum of at least one and a half full seconds to simulate you hitting the ground and re-shouldering your weapon to aim it). I don't think the SAW zoom issue is the only solution (although I do hope one day that all weapons work similarly, with the smallest weapons having the shortest time, and the heavier weapons having times similar to the SAW, or even more). The devs of PR and other mod teams have proven time and time again the ability to find creative workarounds for things that are otherwise hardcoded. I think the issue here seems to be that they just aren't interested in fixing it at the moment or don't think the issue is important.

And I agree CannonballGB, I would say there's a very small part of the community that doesn't use the instaprone to their advantage now and again. By small, I mean fractions of a percent. I'll admit, and I've admitted it every time the issue has been brought up-- I do it. When faced between using something that is arguably either a fair part of the game or just hasn't/can't be fixed right now, or dying and having to wait to spawn, I'll instaprone in a heartbeat. I can honestly say that I don't actually remember the last time that I lost a firefight where I instaproned and the other person didn't. It's that big of an advantage. Just the same as if I walk out around a corner and have my RPG out, and see an infantry about to shoot me, I'll absolutely use my RPG against that one guy. And I know I'm in the huge majority of the community on both of those issues, despite whatever statistics are garnered from polls such as these.

[Raniak]

SO MANY OF YOU ARE LYING IN THIS POLL!

I didn't, I voted "I use my rocket or nade first", when I start a firefight I want to kill the more I can before using my rifle.

If you start the fight with your rifle, they will locate you and kill you...

But if you start the fight with a grenade (or an rpg if insurgents) there are higher chance that they will be disoriented and disorganized.

[*2Recon*]

SO MANY OF YOU ARE LYING IN THIS POLL!

Well the poll is kind of stupid imho.
The problem is the rare times i take the grenadier kit, its too bloody tempting to shoot it from 20m for a sure kill or 3 of them.(yes i do it and so do 99% of you when you play grenadier) Specially on small cramped maps. I hope the limited grenadier will help but i doubt it ,on the upcoming version atleast. There maybe couple less grenadiers but now the wanker gets 8 of them, im scared of that guy already. Only solution might be to remove the grenadier kit, atleast from the most of the current 0.5 maps.
Oh and one thing i have to mention is last few days we have noticed a new trend: the heavy-AT pointman. He's running around with the gun in his shoulder diving corners and
rushing through the jungles of mao valley and OGT. Every time i see that i laugh my *** off. The day i see heavy AT removed from those maps (and a couple other maps aswell) i will piss honey as we say here.

[blud]

Well sometimes you've got the grenade launcher out, expecting that there are no enemies super close to you, and then you fully come around a corner and bam there is an enemy right in your face.

So what are you supposed to do? Switch to your rifle while the guy kills you? Or shoot him with the noob tube and kill both of you? Obviously the best choice is to kill both of you, and I don't understand why people think it's cheap, I mean you think people want to blow themselves up? They got stuck with the noob tube out when you surprised them and they had no choice.

[Hellequin]

Prone diving in cqb was one of the things I really hated about vbf2 and I hate it still, I'm always being killed by it because I always crouch to fire from about 10 feet anything less I tend to stand and fire.

I don't always ironsight up close because I find it pretty easy to visualise a xhair or rough area and that often works pretty well.

If it is a fairly distant firefight I use a stance appropriate to available cover and will engage with a nade launcher first if I am grenadier class.

[Kruder]

I agree with threadstarter %100 but not about kicking ppl from your squad just for prone diving.

[Hx.Clavdivs]

Scenario: 20 gamers join.

On both sides:
2 enter the APC
3 enters the Tank
1 goes sniper
1 goes marksman
1 goes RPG
Rest goes grenadelauncher.

Now ask me again, what tactic would one deploy against this? I am stuck between not leaving mainbase and discussing with the QM how many cases of beer he actually has back there or ... just not leaving main base and looking at it with binocs.

[Harrelson]

the maths is so simple.

recoil was increased and therefore killing an enemy needs more skill (fine, accurate mouse movement) and plenty of time. therefore people are shying away from gunfigts.

this is why people prefer to use nade launchers and rpgs. quick and easy

[DirtyHarry88]

the maths is so simple.

recoil was increased and therefore killing an enemy needs more skill (fine, accurate mouse movement) and plenty of time. therefore people are shying away from gunfigts.

this is why people prefer to use nade launchers and rpgs. quick and easy

Very true.

[Seirrah]

I feel the same way. This mod needs less explosions and more gunfire.

Couldn't agree more.

[CareBear]

trusty main weapons FTW! ,

yer im always seem to be killed by rpg and watnots

[oS2007]

Well, since I am 100% SP, the enemies I encounter are disorganized and rarely heading in the same direction, I almost never use nades/launchers/etc. Humvees, their OPFOR equivalent, and tight quarters (which I don't happen to be in) are the only exceptions.

[gazzthompson]

well i use every advantage i can get ,i use RPG or 'noob tube' , nade spam and 'instaproning' , if i dont do it the other person will simple. i know its anoying but id rather kill them than they kill me , but hopefully the bigger maps will make for better style of game play.

[SiN|ScarFace]

I use all the tools I am issued.

[Outlawz7]

Have a delay on M203s and L-AT, so you can't fire it right away?
Idea would be, that you have to get prepared to take a shot..not just press 4, shoot and reload, then move on

[Top_Cat_AxJnAt]

NO, delays are not the true way - play a very very small role. These are the sort of excuses and fixes EA/DICE come up with.

With this issue and particualr this one, it requires 5 or more different additions/changes to be made to remove the significance and level of the problems mentioned, instant prone spamming, nade spamming, spamming with weapons to unrealistic levels.

Some of the these changes have happened but the major ones have only just begun and i dont expect to see them all of the made and completed until atleast 1.0.

All the changes have been mention on this thread but it is crucial that you regonize them all, therefore be able to see the connection between them, thier affect (interconnected) and therefore the solution as a whole.

1 - Big maps with large amounts of open ground but carefully layed out cover.
2 - Long drawdistances on all players and vehicles.
3 - Weapons whos recoil, power and accuracy allow players to enage enemy infantry on these big maps and long range effectively.
4 - KIt layouts that provides 90% of all players with the above weapons.
5 - Kit layouts that limit the ammount of specialized equipement to the ammount required to forfill specialized objectives and NO more.
6 - Game modes whos objectives encourage use of all area on the map

I believe the above encompases just about all the comments made, they are general but they affect just about every ISSUE stated. Harrelson point about assult rifles = point 4, RPG spamming = point 5, instant proning:

Well the combination of all of the above, should mean, as Egg said: "we can get longer engagement ranges and get into having decent firefights" and enagements at close range are made using realistic tpye, number and power weapons, therefore the reducing and semi eliminating the effectivness of instant pronespamming, HE wepaon spamming and the ability for players to use such tactics.

So, for now, best thing to do is be patient and have trust in DEVS, they know exactly what they are doing and they are doing as we speak exactly what needs to be done, so i would just remain cool and not get TOO hung over some of these issues.