I don't think the world is ready...

[Doedel]

I just got out of a game of PR and I must say I was thoroughly disappointed. Not in the mod itself, although there were some points that really bugged me about it, but in the fact that the current online gaming community is woefully ill-prepared for such a game. In all honesty, the game was a debacle, people running around killing and being killed aimlessly, enemies popping up everywhere because of the lack of UAV/Scan (now I know BF42 and BFV didn't have UAV/Scan and they were fine, but they weren't BF2... in a map like Karkand or Sharqi or Mashtuur where you have a billion little alleys and different ways to go, not having those tools is almost crippling), and of course the utter domination of everything by armored vehicles. Now I know AFVs are powerful and are supposed to be, but I just have to ask.. why can an LAV survive a hit from an Eryx? Why can a T-90 survive a hit from a TOW? I was under the impression, given to me by a friend of mine who's been an M1 Abrams tank crewman going on 6-7 years, that such vehicles should be obliterated by those weapons?

Anyway, just thought I'd spread my gripe.

[Chocobo]

I like bukkake....?

[Artnez]

In all honesty, the game was a debacle, people running around killing and being killed aimlessly, enemies popping up everywhere because of the lack of UAV/Scan (now I know BF42 and BFV didn't have UAV/Scan and they were fine, but they weren't BF2... in a map like Karkand or Sharqi or Mashtuur where you have a billion little alleys and different ways to go, not having those tools is almost crippling), and of course the utter domination of everything by armored vehicles.

What are you talking about fella? You should have just summed up your statements in 4 short sentences:

The game is harder for me to play with the mod. I dont know how to avoid and eliminate vehicles. I can't play as a team. Please make things easier for me so that I like the mod more.

The problem you have is common among people that are either reviewing a product or judging a product. You are looking for things that are wrong, as opposed to look for things that are right. You can find something wrong with everything if you really wanted to.

Regarding your problem with UAV/Scans ...

If you have trouble keeping track of the enemy on a map like Karkand... learn the map better, pick up some books on basic military strategy and play some chess. You'll be good to go in no time.

Regarding your problem with vehicles dominating...

If you feel dominated by vehicles, you should be. It's a main battle tank, not a trojan horse made out of paper clips. Select an AT kit and you'll be just find. A couple shots with your AT weapon and the vehicle will be history.

Regarding your problem with damage on vehicles...

Stop and think for a moment. What would happen if all AT weapons could eliminate armor with one shot? Things need to be tweaked for gameplay purposes. Otherwise, the side defending will always be victorious.

In the real world, there would be air support, pre-battle briefings, maps, enemy positions & concentrated troops movements, operatives under cover, and no respawning.

And that's it. I just addressed all of your issues and I'm not even a dev.

Try and think things through before you write them next time, k?

[Artnez]

but in the fact that the current online gaming community is woefully ill-prepared for such a game.

Look into Operation Flashpoint.. you'll see how ready people are.

[{GD}Snake13]

Actually you didn't address any of his issues you just made an inane rant

edit: A rant complete with contradictions, false information, hypocrasy, and an insulting overtone. Congrats, Fox News has a job for you!

[Enforcer1975]

Look into Operation Flashpoint.. you'll see how ready people are.

Not really, most players there were noobs ( sorry to say that, but it's true ), they had no idea how to do teamwork. The only challenge were clans. Even with a team of 3 or 4 clansmen you can stand a chance against 10 or more public players. Most of them excepted an action game, all they got was realism. Sooner than later the game was filled up with cheaters, fakers etc.

To the AT weapons like TOW. The T90 is a modern tank, and a AT rocket is not a superweapon. If you aim carefully in PR 0.2 you can destroy an MBT with 1 shot, blowing up a MBT in vanilla Bf with 2 hits is not impossible either.

Regarding the missing UAV i give you the advice of keeping your eyes open and turning around 1 or 2 times every couple of meters. This is not action BF2 where you can leap 2m to avoid gunfire, land with guns blazing and killing the enemy.

[SiN|ScarFace]

I was playing last night and all the people who were complaining were at the bottom of the score list most with negative numbers. How ironic.

[{GD}Snake13]

I do feel something needs to be adressed as far as in-game information, there needs to be a little more of it given to facilitate better communication and teamwork. Right now it has the same problem as OPF, feels like I spend more time looking for something to fight then actually fighting (although I must admit I didn't get a chance to play AAS so the focused nature of that gametype might present a fix for that problem)

I really think the UAV should be brought back and let only the commander see it. I know IRL infantry wouldn't show up as red blips, but in realife you would have a whole team of guys anaylizing the data and reporting to the commander, not one guy responsible for analyzing the direct feed from the UAV while at the same time directing artillery and giving orders to squad leaders.

IRL there is more then one person who handles all the intelligence/cmd functions, we need to cut the commander some slack as far a technical realism goes in order to get some functional realism

[Chocobo]

We were having a slight problem with a long walk to find people, mainly because of the flag hopping. We adjusted our server to 16 people for now and made the maps smaller and it seems to be more fun!

[BlakeJr]

Just a friendly notice.
Keep it cool guys!
Means all of you!

Unless you want to be the proud bunch who earned these boards their 2 :d locked thread!

[Artnez]

Actually you didn't address any of his issues you just made an inane rant

edit: A rant complete with contradictions, false information, hypocrasy, and an insulting overtone. Congrats, Fox News has a job for you!

Having an insulting overtone is better than having no overtone whatsoever. Atleast I gave him enough respect to breakdown why I feel the way I feel. If I were to formulate an elegant response such as yours to mine, then I'd see reason to flame me.

I'd like to know what contradictions you found in what I said.

Regardless, it's quite evident that the only reason you even said what you said is because I completely disagree with what you and him both agree upon.

I like how you people instantly make a judgement on the minimod based on a single day of gaming (most probably only a few hours). Note that I'm a frequent in these forums and eager to give the PR devs my opinion... but I'm still waiting it out to explore all of the new features and try them on multiple servers.

IRL there is more then one person who handles all the intelligence/cmd functions, we need to cut the commander some slack as far a technical realism goes in order to get some functional realism.

I had no problem finding a fight. No one on my squad did either. People still haven't adjusted to this game style as the minimod has been out for only a week.

Every multiplaye game that focuses on large open combat does not have a UAV, or any form of it. People still find a fight with great ease.

Dropping a little drone every 4 minutes that gives away all of the enemy positions in a particular area completely ruins any type of tactics that you might want to try.

Ambushes wont work, sniper cover wont work, flanking wont work.

BF2 is an all out action game that relies on mindlessly running around and shooting things with little thought about the tactics and strategy. The game does most of the hard things for you, including pointing out enemies and dropping artillery every few minutes to make sure the enemy force doesnt get to strong.

Play the game a little, get used to it, and understand how the mechanics of tactical movement work. You monitor your map and anticipate enemy movements before they happen. Sometimes you're wrong, sometimes you're right. Having little on demand drones, one shot one kill anti tank rockets that are manned & reloaded by 1 person, etc will make the game easier... but it will also dumb down the gameplay as vanilla BF2 did.

[Crm234]

Hello im new to the forum, but have been a long time reader project reality forums. I can understand where everyones is coming from so far in this forum. Also to a point i understand what the first person`s post was saying. The game lacks a lot of the communication for this game to work to its fulliest potential. I do feel however that the world is ready for what this mod is trying to do.
In the wait for servers for project reality, i found a server Tactical gamer in vanilla Battlefield 2. I like the server a lot and respect what they are doing for battlefield 2. There rules, that made the server fun for me is everyone needs to be in a squad and follow the squad leaders orders or kicked. Squad leaders must also follow commands orders as well. A plus is that everyone is using the mic system in battlefield 2.
My suggestions and im sorry if i bored you to this point. Is that instead of some people using teamspeak or vent. Can we try using the battlefield system, because we all know that everyone has it to play battlefield2. Second try to include what Tactical gamer has incorperated into Project Reality. Third as for what i think was the uav statement, i do think we should keep it in because in reality this game is based on the future from the nations and conflict.
In writing this i thank everyone for reading this message and thank the devs for the this site and their mod and write this as a idea. Not in anyway a blow or insult to it.

[requiem]

Regarding the UAV, we have said a few times that it will be replaced by a real-time UAV (which is even modeled & skinned), yet in the meantime the current one will be removed (how often do you find yourselves going after a red bleep ). Hope this settles the UAV questions.

[GABBA]

I have to agree too.

I played a HUGE PR game 14 people (non members) and they had NO IDEA what they were playing.

It must not have been that bad because they were still playing. But there a few things that i found myself questioning.

[GABBA]

Can someone explain WHY the commander position was taken out.

Without a commander every is in deep shit. Most SL have no idea what they are doing and it takes a Commander to tell them what to do. I think commander needs to be put back in.

[BrokenArrow]

it wasnt taken out... the satscan and the UAV were. commanders can still get supplies and drop arty and tell people where to go.

[Doedel]

I appreciate your uncandidness, Artnez. Truely.

I'd half agree with what you've said. I didn't play the game very long, but my POINT was, which seems to have been lost, is that while BF2 is best played with teamwork, PR almost NEEDS teamwork to be any kind of enjoyable experience. The game I played that led to that gripe was probably the most pathetic attempt at a side desperately trying to not die that I've ever seen in my gaming history. Now, not to say that I don't like PR, I actually do like it.. yes, I have some issues about it, but whatever. My point was, this mod is going to REQUIRE very active teamwork and coordination between players.

Anyway, I don't really like the comment about having to make realism sacrafices for gameplay purposes. For one thing, I thought this mod was a REALITY mod. For another, EA sacraficed realism for gameplay purposes and look where it's got us -- Project Reality.

In any case I still have to disagree about the armour. They SHOULD be slaughtered wholesale by AT weapons (AT weapons in and of themselves however should be much rarer than they are), but they'd still be devestating if used correctly. Afterall, MBTs like the M1 and T-90 weren't designed as infantry support/heavy weapons platforms for urban environments. They were designed to combat enemy tanks head-on. They're sometimes used as infantry support platforms in support of infantry in urban settings but if you've ever seen that, you'd probably notice the tanks either sit in one carefully chosen and defendable position, or move very slowly. They do not burst full-speed up some closed-up urban avenue, right into the middle of an enemy position swarming with dozens of enemy soldiers. They're more used as direct fire support against positions infantry need to pummel with a large amount of explosives.

Think of it like this.. how are these things used in real life? What kinds of situations will you see them in, and what will they be doing? And why?

My vote, tanks should be armed to the teeth with deadly weapons.. HE and AP ammunition, coaxial machineguns, two top-turret machineguns, smoke launchers, etc etc.. but their susceptibility to AT weapons should be realistic too...

[Artnez]

I'd half agree with what you've said. I didn't play the game very long, but my POINT was, which seems to have been lost, is that while BF2 is best played with teamwork, PR almost NEEDS teamwork to be any kind of enjoyable experience. The game I played that led to that gripe was probably the most pathetic attempt at a side desperately trying to not die that I've ever seen in my gaming history. Now, not to say that I don't like PR, I actually do like it.. yes, I have some issues about it, but whatever. My point was, this mod is going to REQUIRE very active teamwork and coordination between players.

I agree 150%. Teamwork is absoltuely necessary for PR to function. The problem is, you cannot force anything on a gamer. Trust me on this.

People will not adapt to the gameplay.. they will try to make the gameplay adapt to their style. If a group of people are incapable of playing as a team, there are no features/additions that you can add that will change this.

This is why large tournaments like 21CW exist (and why 21CW adapted a modified version of PRMM).

I don't know if you've played previous version of the BF series (BF1942 is the best of course).

If you did, you will know exactly what I'm talking about. Those games didnt force teamwork at all, whereas BF2 pushes teamwork on the player. What has changed? Nothing. Nothing has changed because you can add all the little teamwork features you want... people will not play as a team if they dont want to. Oh, and using the spawn on squad leader thing as an excuse to say that BF2 is team oriented in pub servers is wrong... spawning on your squad leader changes nothing if you're not working as a team anyway.

It's important to understand that if you are planning to play on a public server, with mature adults and immature children... you can't expect much. Everyone has their own strategy. Some like to sneak, others like to rush, others like to do whatever it takes and others like to be fair.

What I'm trying to say here is... putting in features like the UAV (in its current state, not the one that PR will have) doesn't do anything except tell you where the enemy is. People still go their own way and some dont even pay attention to the UAV.

To further my point.. the reason you guys have had problems in finding a battle in public servers has nothing to do with the UAV or even PRMM. It's map design. Map development is the absolute key to have a good experience in BF2 or PRMM.

AAS mode pretty solves all of the issues of teamwork. People are forced to stay together in a logical manner.. and the battles are more intense since you actually clash with the enemy.

Anyway, I don't really like the comment about having to make realism sacrafices for gameplay purposes. For one thing, I thought this mod was a REALITY mod. For another, EA sacraficed realism for gameplay purposes and look where it's got us -- Project Reality.

100% agreed once again.

You should check out Insurgency mod for HL2... their forums have some very interesting discussions on this issue. The guys that are working on Insurgency the best of the best in the modding community (in my opinion of course).

The basic idea there is this ...

It's absolutely impossible to recreate the real world in a video game. There are WAY too many factors to.. well.. factor in :] Things like breating, eating, walking, human strength, variety in human endurance, weather, sickness, mechanical failures, size of attacking force (a wee bit more than 32 people to assault a whole city), vision, fear, accidents, adrenaline, squad assignments( no such thing as 10 snipers on a 32 man team, etc) and more.

The things I listed above just cannot be accurately recreated in a video game, but have serious effect on a real life battle.

What Insurgency is doing (and what I agree with) is focusing on creating an authentic (not real/realistic) experience for the player.

In any case I still have to disagree about the armour. They SHOULD be slaughtered wholesale by AT weapons (AT weapons in and of themselves however should be much rarer than they are), but they'd still be devestating if used correctly. Afterall, MBTs like the M1 and T-90 weren't designed as infantry support/heavy weapons platforms for urban environments. They were designed to combat enemy tanks head-on. They're sometimes used as infantry support platforms in support of infantry in urban settings but if you've ever seen that, you'd probably notice the tanks either sit in one carefully chosen and defendable position, or move very slowly. They do not burst full-speed up some closed-up urban avenue, right into the middle of an enemy position swarming with dozens of enemy soldiers. They're more used as direct fire support against positions infantry need to pummel with a large amount of explosives.

Once again, I'm in agreement :] You are right, tanks are not used to roll around like a rolls royce around urban terrain.

But thinking in this regard... tanks are also used to clean out enemy troops from a distance. And they are deadly effective if you know where the troops are. A tank can completely demolish an apartment building (like those in Karkand), killing all of those inside.

Even more, most of these infantry units position themselves inside of buildings to hide. You cannot go inside of structures in BF2. The structures cannot be destroyed either.

And even more, in the real world politics play a role too. Sometimes troops are ordered to minimize the destruction of public property and confirm before they fire devastating rounds into apartment buildings.

Think of it like this.. how are these things used in real life? What kinds of situations will you see them in, and what will they be doing? And why?

Continuing from my previous point, if want to make it easier to eliminate the armor because it is that way in real life (I'm guessing your more of an infantry fella like me, heh), you would have to give armor its destructive power as well... which is impossible because the BF2 engine can't handle it or won't allow it.

One other thing to note is view distance. The view distance in BF2 is hella low for performance purposes and tanks rarely ever engage at such distances.

If a tank can see you, you can see him. That of course, will make it VERY difficult for tanks to be used like they are in real life. In order for me to take out out infantry, I have to get close enough for them to terminate me with AT rockets.

Armor can even engage infantry at pretty long distances (see my collection of war footage http://www.artnez.com/war/ for example).

My vote, tanks should be armed to the teeth with deadly weapons.. HE and AP ammunition, coaxial machineguns, two top-turret machineguns, smoke launchers, etc etc.. but their susceptibility to AT weapons should be realistic too...

This will not make them any more effective because they are driven by one person.. and you can only aim at one place at one time. Like I said above, the view distance limits you to the point where you have to get pretty close to infantry to kill them.

If the PR devs choose the allow manned tanks (a driver, a gunner, etc), this will cause more problems it's the equivalent of putting a nascar driver in a tank and say 'ok, drive into the battle' with circus clown as a gunner.

And one final example I will give is that people do not respawn on real life. It's an obvious point but it seriously applies here. A military does not have an infinite number of AT weapons... so it would be kind of unfair if 20 people out of 30 on a team spawned as AT soldiers. When they died, they would respawn as AT soldiers yet again. The fact that they can respawn should offset the fact that they need to shoot a tank twice.

[requiem]

Regarding teamwork, we're trying to increase it through the means of PRMM-T servers : http://realitymod.com/forum/t2304-prmmt ... rvers.html .

[Artnez]

Regarding teamwork, we're trying to increase it through the means of PRMM-T servers : http://realitymod.com/forum/t2304-prmmt ... rvers.html .

A PR tournament wouldn't hurt later down the road... although it's probably best if it's administered by a different team of people.. but still considered one "organization".