Grenade Launcher must be fixed

{GD}ODIE3 · Post by **{GD}ODIE3** » 2005-11-02 05:06

Snake13, you could have been a bit nicer in your post man!

Rha, good post.

Oh,
Ya what nevermore said!

Rha · Post by **Rha** » 2005-11-02 05:13

Enforcer1975 wrote:Limiting will just lead to let them die earlier. Imagine a noobtubeuser who can only use the tube. He gets his 2 shots and cries for ammo. But as most of the time the supportmen are to busy to give him ammo because they are looking for important killing points. So he decides to commit suicide via enemy ( run in front of one or at least tries to hit somebody with that weird thing called rifle attached to the grenade launcher. He succeeds in getting wasted and voilá, another 2 40mm rounds... You know how noobish a person is on the amount on encounters you or others have with this person. xxx[M203]xyz, xxx[M203]abc, abc[M203]xxx, xxx[M203]xyz, efg[M203]xxx, xxx[M203]xyz. This is endless

Personally I don't care much for all the suicide freaks out there either nade spamers or the guy that runs a jeep with 4 blocks of C4 head 1st into a tank. Is there any way of making it so when u kill yourself killing someone else you give tickets to the other team.

So not only do you lose tickets you give them to the other side. i.e.( So Joe Shmoe Suicide Spec ops drives his C4 covered jeep into a full APC.) He kills himself and the 5 guys in the APC. The team that had the APC not only keeps their 5 tickets they gain 6. Every time you kill yourself you give the other team tickets. There needs to be more of a penalty for suicide. Maybe also longer respawn timer for suicide and shorter one for the people they killed.

Regardless of whatever the problem is. It isn't that there are Grenade launchers in the game or even how many nades they have. ( I wouldn't want to have to carry 24+ 40mm nades on my person personally. ) The problem is the game isn't designed to force you to use them the way they are used in real life.

The Minimum safe range in combat is around 30 meters for example. The launcher is held at a angle pointing up and you don't point it at the ground at your enemy 5 feet away. Chances are if you are pointing it the ground in anyway you will kill yourself. I have never tried this myself though so I don't know. I have also heard that you can be pretty close to a grenade when it goes off and survive if you are in the prone. I also have not tried this.

Noetheinner · Post by **Noetheinner** » 2005-11-02 06:31

Rha wrote: So not only do you lose tickets you give them to the other side. i.e.( So Joe Shmoe Suicide Spec ops drives his C4 covered jeep into a full APC.) He kills himself and the 5 guys in the APC. The team that had the APC not only keeps their 5 tickets they gain 6. Every time you kill yourself you give the other team tickets. There needs to be more of a penalty for suicide. Maybe also longer respawn timer for suicide and shorter one for the people they killed.

This be the only part I got a problm with. I think it'd be too hard to make sure that it's an intentional self kill. I HAVE accidently ran into another chopper while flying, have freaked out and while aiming at someone with the M203/GP30 and shot anotherguy coming around the corner instead and killed myself, forgot there aren't any parachutes in this mod

, ran in front of my own claymore, stuff like that.

But I do like where you are going with it here.

Rha wrote:Maybe also longer respawn timer for suicide and shorter one for the people they killed.

BUT I wouldn't want to reward the guys that got suicided. That just seems a bit.... lopsided.

PhiR · Post by **PhiR** » 2005-11-02 08:41

Noetheinner wrote:This be the only part I got a problm with. I think it'd be too hard to make sure that it's an intentional self kill.

Just wait here. We have punishment for TKs even if they are not intentional. I don't see why mistakes shouldn't be punished. If you make a mistake and it ends up costing your team something, why not ? How some form of incentive to be careful could be bad ? In real life you don't want to die or be court-martialed so you are careful, so maybe a longer spawn time could provide that incentive. You'd think twice about shooting M203s to your own feet if you knew it would give you a fair amount of spawn time

We can't have realistic weapons without the incentive to use them properly. I think the same goes for C4 (even thought it's less widely used): it does not seem realistic to just throw C4 at people and blow it on the spot (unless you're an iraqi rebel but that's another story

)

As a nice side-effect, this kind of suicide penalty would somewhat reduce the jihad buggy use because you'll only do it if you are desperate (APC or tank when your team is down to one flag). If your team is doing ok, nobody in his right mind would jihad buggy on a tank just to get a frag. People would just take the time to spawn AT and shoot the thing dead.

In desert combat this mechanism was used to "punish" TKs: the spawn time was 60 secs for a TK, which gave you some quiet time to think about your mistakes (and apologize too..).

Noetheinner · Post by **Noetheinner** » 2005-11-02 14:55

umm... read that last little bit on my post bub.

we're agreeing!

{GD}Snake13 · Post by **{GD}Snake13** » 2005-11-02 15:14

This is too much like deju vu here. for years I used to play infiltration UT and they struggled to make the m203 fill its role realisticly, let me pass on a few lessons we all learned in that.

-Realistic ammo loads do not work, IRL a gunner may have 24 m203s, but may have to make them last days of fighting, in game players don't expect to live more then a few minutes and use up there grenades at an unrealistic rate. I would stake my life on it, if you give the gunner 24 nades you will see non-stop grenade spam.

- there is no way we found to dissuade people from using grenades in an unrealistic fashion, due to life expectency issues as stated above, people will used m203s against a lone soldier out in the open, its inevitable.

- arming distance is crucial, at least with it in place players are less apt to walk around with their grenade launcher out, and therefore more likly to save their grenades for good targets

- m203s are less deadly then handgrenades IIRC due to less shrapnel

PhiR · Post by **PhiR** » 2005-11-02 15:43

{GD}Snake13 wrote: -Realistic ammo loads do not work, IRL a gunner may have 24 m203s, but may have to make them last days of fighting, in game players don't expect to live more then a few minutes and use up there grenades at an unrealistic rate. I would stake my life on it, if you give the gunner 24 nades you will see non-stop grenade spam.

your IRL life or your ingame life ?

{GD}Snake13 wrote: - there is no way we found to dissuade people from using grenades in an unrealistic fashion, due to life expectency issues as stated above, people will used m203s against a lone soldier out in the open, its inevitable.

- arming distance is crucial, at least with it in place players are less apt to walk around with their grenade launcher out, and therefore more likly to save their grenades for good targets

One other idea to reduce the abuses of the m203 is to dramatically lower its precision will standing and/or moving. If one has to crouch/prone to fire it effectively, its use will be much more reasonnable. The sniper guns have the same issue in most games where you can fire them unzoomed (one of the things BF2 got right): everybody is running around with large sniper rifles and use them as close range rail guns.

Considering that this is a mini-mod, i guess the precision tweaking could solve many of the issues without too much hassle (i'm not familiar with bf2 files, but it looked like modifying accuracy was quite easy).

Enforcer1975 · Post by **Enforcer1975** » 2005-11-02 16:04

Nevermore wrote:IRL your average Grenadier carries in excess of 24+ 40mm grenades, why would you want to limit it if your mod is going for 'realism', might just as well change it from a 'realism mod' to a 'gameplay mod' if thats the case.

You guys have to keep in mind that there is a learning curve/period of adjustment, when an update to a mod is released, everyone will whore the weapon du jour for a while, complain and whine, then settle back into what they know works well for them, its not sounding too unrealistic for someone to spam a group of people with a 40mm grenade, thats what they were designed for after all

I'm sure the whole platoon carries the grenades, not just 1 man ( heard one yelling for a 40mm during a gunfight in a video ). Unfortunatly you cannot give a certain ammo type away like in DoD ( i.e. the mg ammo that every soldiers carries that can be dropped for the supporting machine gun ). In that case swinging a grenade launcher would be no problem, you kill the squad members, the grenadier has less ammo.
As long as the arming distance isn't or cannot be altered or the launcher hasn't been removed which might be the easiest way to stop gl whoring everybody will whine. I'm pretty sure those who say " Stop whining!" whine the most when hit by a grenade.

{GD}Snake13 · Post by **{GD}Snake13** » 2005-11-02 21:03

Platoon may carry more as a whole, but that sounds accurate for a grenadier's personal loadout

Artnez · Post by **Artnez** » 2005-11-02 23:15

Guys, lets not get carried away here.

We all know that sacrifices to realism will need to be made for this mod. It's inevitable. The reason being, the BF2 engine doesnt allow for a completely realistic depiction of a real situation. Destruction of buildings, weather, supply line, exhaustion, hunger, thirst, bladder.. all of these things play a big part in real life -- but they obviously can't in the game.

Let's focus on giving advice that will make the battle turn out as realistically as possible... which I think is the priority. PRMM has already accomplished this in certain areas -- particularly urban infantry battles. There will always be room for improvement, but I think they are headed in the right direction.

In my opinion, things will be better off with the 203 removed. I've been thinking about it for a while (and to a point, I hate saying it... as completely removing something for gameplay purposes.. just sucks).

So here's my reasoning...

As I see it, if you put two well-armed and well-trained platoons head to head in any location, it's highly probable that the battle will be over in a heartbeat. The weapons used by both sides are specifically designed to despose of the enemy as quickly and efficiently as possible. A game depicting this will be quite boring, to say the least.

There hasn't been a military conflict with very well equipped militaries fighting since World War 2 (Vietnam would pass I guess... since the russians equipped the vietnamese quite well and they were very experienced fighters -- then again, their losses in comparison to the US losses would suggest otherwise). Since that time, we have seen nothing but guerilla warfare throughout the world.

Iraq resistance vs USA
Chechen rebels vs Russia/USSR
Afghani rebels vs USSR
Afgahni rebels vs USA
Albanian seperatists vs Serbian/Yugoslav government.
not to mention all that **** going on in Africa right now.

If a country like the US wanted to go all out on the Iraqi resistence with all of its military strength --- there wouldn't be an Iraqi resistence after a week of "fighting" (at most).

So my point is.. if people are expecting Project Reality to be some sort of war simulator ... I have a feeling they will be greatly disappointed.

On the contrary, I like to think of PR as tactical simulator, where you immitate a combat situation while at the same time engaging in a real-time mental game of chess against the enemy. With a healthy dose of action of course

So... when looking at the game from this perspective, it's very easy for me to say "get rid of the 203", as it adds nothing to the game but a big headache.

Also, while I like the idea of completely limiting classes to the point where a squad must consist of a certain group of infantryman... I think it kind of deters from the idea of doing what you want ... which is what makes BF series great. If it's a choice between that or getting rid of the 203.. I say get rid of the 203.

And lastly, even if they devise a method by which to have a "fuse" type thing on the 203 grenades, it still wont solve a problem to a degree. The 203 will still act as a rocket launcher for noobtoobers. Think about it this way... in BF2/PRMM, if you engage an enemy at say, 30 meters, what will score the quicker kill .. a quick shot of the 203 or a quick shot of the rifle? (dont forget that the 203 will also give you the ability to injure nearby troops, causing them to bleed and die). The dilemma will still exist with or without the fuse.. thus I say get rid of it and move on to more interesting/engaging things like accurately depicting armor/air/sea combat

Nevermore · Post by **Nevermore** » 2005-11-03 00:05

{GD}Snake13 wrote:Platoon may carry more as a whole, but that sounds accurate for a grenadier's personal loadout

Yes, very accurate, its either carried on a vest type H-gear harness, or on a bandoleer {shoulder belt}, 24 is standard, more often than not when resupplying yourself, you grab MORE... I do agree that if totally realistic loadouts were implemented it probably would result in grenade spam {FYI im a member of the IMT for INF, and i remember the whining about the UBER M4 that used the EXACT same ballistic codes as Sentry weapons did...}, i agree they also need a minimum arming distance{this is realistic} to prevent CQB nading.

There are some things IMHO need tweaking, most have been suggested already by other people. There is also a fine line between Balance, Realism, and Gameplay, it is Devs and Mod teams jobs to find thier own vision of what that is, the community either loves it, or hates it and moves on to something they are more attracted to. But if its realism you seek, 'gimping' certain things like the machine guns to allow for gameplay doesnt exactly SCREAM realism, trust me on this, ive been on the other end of the suggestions and demands, its a hard fight to please everyone all the time, for free

I do not agree with removing something that EVERY PLATOON LEVEL UNIT would ALWAYS BE ISSUED AND HAVE AT HAND, thats just ludicrous, fix hows its handled, dont remove it, make it not so easily abused. Gameplay and Realism will find its own Balance in due time with additions and tweaking.

IMHO limiting the number of people on a given side able to carry the M203/GP25 would fix a lot of it, possibly one per Squad {which is also a realism thing}, BF2 is already class based, why not take it to the next level and have realistic implementation of the classes within the game and not just by mere loadout?

ECale3 · Post by **ECale3** » 2005-11-03 07:07

I think irons on the M203 would help the spam problem a lot, seing as the magical floating aiming bracket gives you 100% visibility and pinpoint accuracy (out to the ranges the M203 is actually designed for that is). The lack of a fuse is also a problem, and hopefully a fix can be found for that bug that makes the fused weapons go through objects.

Grenades in general are far too powerful in this mod. Modern fragmentation grenades are powerful weapons, but are not a 100% thing. Sometimes it'll kill everyone in a 15m radius, sometimes a guy laying prone right next to it will survive. I think that some of that unpredictability should be incorporated into the game.

The SAW is outrageously innacurate. There is a reason people don't go heads with a machingun IRL, cause its sprays lots of ammo with good accuracy and will kill you if you do so.

Diving to prone needs to be fixed so players cannot aim and fire while doing it.

And of course scope wobble when moving/standing. A Bipod mode would be good too.

Oh, and Nevermore is my *****

{GD}Snake13 · Post by **{GD}Snake13** » 2005-11-03 18:46

Its been awhile since we did this on the INF forum but if I remeber correctly a the m67 handgrenade has a casualty radius of 5m

Enforcer1975 · Post by **Enforcer1975** » 2005-11-03 19:40

{GD}Snake13 wrote:Its been awhile since we did this on the INF forum but if I remeber correctly a the m67 handgrenade has a casualty radius of 5m

Unfortunatly casualty can be dead or injured... What's with making the Grenades less powerful ( 98% damage ) and give them a smaller radius if the fuse can't be implemented? So they can still nade around but need more than 1 shot to kill. They can still kill injured ones but not soldiers with full health. Most of the time ppl run around injured anyway. So the grenadier still has a chance of killing ppl with 1 hit.

Post by **BrokenArrow** » 2005-11-03 20:31

just give it a playable kill radius, fool around and see if the fuse will work, and everything will work out.

Boobs McGee · Post by **Boobs McGee** » 2005-11-04 13:50

Well until you guys can figure out a way to set the GL to arm after a certain distance you could change other things. How about make it like how FH has its AntiTank weapons. Make it so you have to hold still until the crosshairs get together. I know it doesn't have actual crosshairs, but the effect could get the job done. I don't know how many of you have tried to fire a panzerfaust or a bazooka in FH, but if you do it will moving it will go off in some crazy direction.
Just a suggestion that will help the quick fire spamming that the GL's tend to have now.

Tezzer05 · Post by **Tezzer05** » 2005-11-04 19:00

Artnez.com wrote:Oh, the drama.

It might be a much more valid option to simply remove the grenade launcher. As far as I can see, the only possible ways to limit the use of the GL is:

a) Give it a minimum distance to charge (Paladin said this caused the GL round to go through objects)

b) Limit the ammo count of the GL to either 1 or 2 rounds.

c) Remove the GL altogether.

d) Make the GL part of a kit that is part of a limited class. This all depends on how moddable BF2 is. If you can limit kits (so you can have as many assault troops as you want with the standard kit, but only 2 assault troops with the GL kit) then that would work -- but I have a feeling that's not possible.

B and D are probably the most logical solutions... but maybe I'm not thinking it through completely.

Either way, it must be fixed. I wouldn't be disappointed if the GL was removed period. It doesn't really add anything to the game and it's not one of those things that's used so widely with conventional military forces during an engagement.

dont laugh im a what you wpould call, "noob" but em, BF2 sounds like its shite for modding even though there was a modding tool released before BF2s release.

EA needs to get their sh*t together and pay attention to what they are releasing and make sure of what there is to do with the it.

as for the GL, i say there should be a delay between firing and jumping etc. so people cant sprint, quickly stop sprinting and fire a shot. they cant jump and shoot. they can jump+croush and shoot or jump+go prone and shoot.

Grenade Launcher must be fixed

spawn times