Real damage physics and logic...

GRB · Post by **GRB** » 2005-11-03 19:27

I was curious if it's possible to make more vehicles catch on fire more often than simply explode. Then, on top of that, instead of having the destroyed vehicle model stay visible longer, i wonder if it would be possible to have these vehicles stay on fire longer instead of just exploding...

In real life these vehicles are not able to be blown up with small arms. Ever watch the MythBusters? They busted that myth a long time ago. Even rounds up to 7.62 cannot cause the gas tank to ignite into an explosion.

They fired many different kinds of guns DIRECTLY into the gas tank of a car. Nothing happened for the majority of the time, until they got determined to blow it up..lol. Besides leaking fuel all over the place hell, it didnt even catch on fire.

Now of course if you fire at a RUNNING engine and rupture the fuel line or crack the engines manifolds or block, a fire may break out. In which case the fuel will still not ignite like a bomb. It will just continuously burn until the whole vehicle is in flames.

My point is, firing small arms fire, even that COAXIAL 7.62 cannon on the MBTs should not cause any vehicle to miraculously explode...Im just curious as to wether or not its possible to not have these vehicles be blown up with gun fire.

IRL, even when a tank fires at another tank, the tank that gets hit doesnt just blow up. It either catches on fire or just becomes completely useless(disabled/destroyed). In the event that a shell is hit inside the tank, yes, THEN its possible to get an explosion.

I dont know, i just feel, if this is a realism issue, then most of BF2 is too HOLLYWOODish if ya ask me. Especially with thier "pyrotechnics"...lol.

A few things about the damage that could be more realistic:

1. At 65% HP from, lets say a .50cal, the vehicle will catch on fire and become disabled instead of the current 10-15%...
It doesnt neccissarily have to be at 65%, but basically make the vehicle catch fire and become disabled a lot sooner in its HP as opposed to it only catchin fire at the brink of its hollywood explosive destruction..A long with this you would also have to decrease the amount of damage done to light vehicles by small arms weapons, such as the .50 cal and other machine guns. The .50 cal being of the highest caliber should do the most damage the quickest.

2. Another cool thing ide like to see with these light vehicles (HMMWV and VODs) is high caliber rounds piercing right through them like they should. A mounted automatic .50 cal would rip right through the door (among other things) of any HMMWV or VOD, through the person/s in it, and mostlikely out the other side. (still wouldnt blow it up though)

With that logic in mind, i think we could create a much more realistic battlfield environment.

3. Now of course the vehicles that are left on fire can be blown up with any type of explosive. (C4, HEAP tank rounds ect.) Missiles will NOT blow up a light armored vehicle. At best it will blow a nice hole in it.

4. Also, they should still be able to be used of course. Any one occupying the vehicle while its on fire should start to lose health via damage from the fire...

So again, i dont know..But realistically, these vehicles are very unrealistic currently. They are too vulnerable to small arms fire in terms of overall destruction yet at the same time it takes too long to stop or disable them!

I think this would be a perfect realistic solution.

Would any of this be possible? If so ive got more....

GRB · Post by **GRB** » 2005-11-04 13:59

26 views and not a single reply?

Maybe this is a bit too realistic for you guys?

Post by **Wolfmaster** » 2005-11-04 14:25

well, it seems like a good idea and i don't really have any comments... which is probably why no-one has replied lol

. in any case, if possible it would be a good idea for the mod imo.

JoeB · Post by **JoeB** » 2005-11-04 14:29

Luv it. Except the bullets going straight through jeepies etc. It would make the cars deathtraps imo.

Using this system of not exploding everything once it's broken is very cool imo. Like when shooting a couple of dozen .50 cal slugs into the engine of a hmmv would simply shut it down so to speak. The peeps inside wouldn't be able to drive on, making the vehicle useless.

Also I like the burning vehicles part. I'd love to see a jeep/tank/whatever burning out, with black smoke and all. It'd make for a much more impressive battlefield imo.

GRB · Post by **GRB** » 2005-11-04 14:39

well, it seems like a good idea and i don't really have any comments... which is probably why no-one has replied lol . in any case, if possible it would be a good idea for the mod imo.

Hey, cool.

Well, the only bullets that would actually go through anything would be .50 caliber rounds and up.

A .50 Caliber round is very powerful. It WILL go straight through a HMMWVs skin. You have to think, there isnt a whole lot of .50 cals in the game. Of course it would make it a death trap when talking about comming up against a .50 caliber weapon, thats the point.

Ever heard of the .50 caliber anti material rifle? Ok well that is only ONE bullet at a time fired from a very accurate rifle. What is it used for? Well, the USMC and US ARMY use it to disable light vehicles with one shot straight to the engine block. If one .50 caliber round can crack an engine block, imagine what 50 .50 caliber rounds would do to a vehicle! Or better yet, 100!! Holy moly it would look like swiss cheese!

JoeB · Post by **JoeB** » 2005-11-04 14:41

haha true that. But it would render the light vehicles almost useless right? as it'd only take one .50 cal gun to obliterate them (gameplay wise I mean).

Post by **Wolfmaster** » 2005-11-04 14:58

one problem that i can forsee though with the vehicles not blowing up. if you have a lot of vehicles that are not 'destroyed', as in they can't drive but you can still enter them to fire the weapons etc, no new vehicles of that type would respawns + the map would turn very laggy. but if you mean just make the 'destroyed' state look like flat tires/oil leaking whatever it should be possible i guess... but of course i'm not a coder or something so i wouldn't know for sure.

Post by **Paladin-X** » 2005-11-04 15:17

We still have not found a way to 'disable' vehicles. In BF42 this was built into the game, where whenever the vehicle was deemed to be at critical health, it would no longer move (or move very slowly).

As for fire effects... when a vehicle reaches critical health, it will 'catch fire'. The game doesn't care what type of round hit it. NOTE: Obviously we can change or remove that effect. The point is that the effect is a cause of low hit points.

And in regards to the .50 cal discussion, I think you guys are forgetting that mounted on humvees, vodniks and tanks are .50 cal machine guns.

GRB · Post by **GRB** » 2005-11-04 17:45

Wolfmaster wrote:one problem that i can forsee though with the vehicles not blowing up. if you have a lot of vehicles that are not 'destroyed', as in they can't drive but you can still enter them to fire the weapons etc, no new vehicles of that type would respawns + the map would turn very laggy..

Well, thats kind of the point. The point is to try and make it as real as possible right? Ok, well IRL, if you go into an engagement with a certain amount of vehicles, youll want to treat them as your best buddy and protect them at all costs, right?

Well, same should be true in BF2. After all, they are valuable assets and should be treated as so. If you lose an asset you must adapt and overcome. That is war. Thats the reality of it.

Plus, we have engineers. So, engies will also become a much more respected role.

Speaking of engineers. Doing this will also increase the amount infantry combat. Without your vehicle assets you will have to sqaud up and get to stompin. If there are no active engineers on your team you must adapt and overcome. Again, thats the reality of it.

It would be the equivalant of the US losing a HMMWV in IRAQ. What do they do? They either fix what can be fixed, overcome OR simply leave the vehicle, adapt and overcome.

As far as the map becomming laggy, i doubt that. It wouldnt become any more laggy than they already are because the amount of vehicles is still the same. The only thing i can see causing slightly more vid lag is maybe the fires...

[R-DEV wrote:Paladin-X] We still have not found a way to 'disable' vehicles. In BF42 this was built into the game, where whenever the vehicle was deemed to be at critical health, it would no longer move (or move very slowly).

As for fire effects... when a vehicle reaches critical health, it will 'catch fire'. The game doesn't care what type of round hit it. NOTE: Obviously we can change or remove that effect. The point is that the effect is a cause of low hit points.

And in regards to the .50 cal discussion, I think you guys are forgetting that mounted on humvees, vodniks and tanks are .50 cal machine guns.

Hmm...I know a little about coding and the only thing i can see that would stop being able to change when the vehicles critical health is and what happens at critical health, is if the action was "attached" to the maximum Hit points value...In which case that would be very tough, if not impossible to change. You would essentially have to create different hit point values and different actions for each level. But that would require new coding in the "core"..So i dunno..

I know that those are .50cals on the HMMWV, VODs and the tanks. Point being? They are extremely deadly weapons. They should be portrayed as so. Right now they are no different than any of the other machine guns.

The coaxial 7.62s are more powerful than the .50cals right now. Thats like backwards. The only thing the coaxials on the MBTs have over the .50cals is a higher ROF. Much smaller round though. The coaxial can destroy a HMMWV much faster than the .50cal. It should be the other way around. Same with infantry and aircraft.

The .50 calibers should be among the most powerful and deadly weapons in the game. In real life, no matter how much armor a soldier is wearing, a .50 caliber round is going to tear right through him with ease..One shot to the torso and thats it for johnny, he ran as fast as he could, but...lol.

Mad Max · Post by **Mad Max** » 2005-11-04 20:33

A 5.56 will go through a Humvee, so will a 9mm in some cases (angle, range, blah blah). Humvee's aren't armoured, even shrapnel can get through them form frags exploding near by. In Iraq at the start of the war a lot of troops used their body armour against the inside of the doors incase they got shot at, so they had some sort of protection so they could drive on instead of getting hit themselves. Later on they raided scrap yards and welded sheets of old steel and stuff onto the sides of the things and only recently have they got actual proper uparmoured kits for them.

God knows about the VOD, is it even real? Either way it doesn't look too armoured, so it'll mosy likely be something like the Humvee or maybe slightly better in terms of protection.

Anyway, I'd like to see more disabled vehicles. It'd be nice if you could disable tracks on tanks too, like just on one side (that's hit obviously) so it just goes around in circles being a nice large static/slow target for AT gunners and other tanks.

Brentos · Post by **Brentos** » 2005-11-04 21:14

Yeah, I forgot where I read it, but some marine talked about how he and some fellow troops fired dozens of rounds at an enemy vehicle that was not moving. All of the enemies exited the vehicle unscathed.

Corey Darling · Post by **Corey Darling** » 2005-11-04 21:22

Does the bf2 engine allow for torque? just wondering because the helicopters should have at least a small amount of torque (right) that has to be countered, especially in a hover.

With vehicle damage in mind, would it be possible for a heli/plane to take a hit which would cause it to become unflyable? tailrotor loss/damaged control surfaces?

DAWG · Post by **DAWG** » 2005-11-04 23:39

I was thinking, something that doesn't happen too often I assure you. Anyway, would it be possible to code the engine so that as damage increases on the vehiclc you are controlling, the game alters the way in which your mouse interacts with the vehicle, either increasing or decreasing the sensitivity of control and yaw factors. This would at least allow the game to simulate control difficulties, they might not be perfectly accurate, but it would add another level of detail to the aircraft and vehicles. Aircraft would become flying coffins after a few bad hits and tank guns or APC cannons would become sluggish on the turn.

GRB · Post by **GRB** » 2005-11-04 23:55

Hmm.

Interesting ideas guys.

I too am interested in wether or not any of this is possible. Chances are its not. EA Games says they have the best Mod support, but if you ask me, i think its the worst..

Artnez · Post by **Artnez** » 2005-11-05 10:43

I was watching COPS (dont ask me why, I was bored) and I saw this one clip where the police showed put the scene of a driveby. A bystander was killed because a bullet went through the license plate, backseat, and hit the person in the drivers seat. The bullet was stuck in the body.

I forgot wat calibre it was, but I'm sure gang members would have trouble getting their hands on high caliber fully automatic weapons...

Enforcer1975 · Post by **Enforcer1975** » 2005-11-05 13:19

Artnez.com wrote:I was watching COPS (dont ask me why, I was bored) and I saw this one clip where the police showed put the scene of a driveby. A bystander was killed because a bullet went through the license plate, backseat, and hit the person in the drivers seat. The bullet was stuck in the body.

I forgot wat calibre it was, but I'm sure gang members would have trouble getting their hands on high caliber fully automatic weapons...

Usual high calibre weapons are AKs...In most cases the best they can get would be a 9mm smg, and it's better to conceal than an assault rifle.

This is the standard homeboy gun

GRB · Post by **GRB** » 2005-11-05 15:57

lol, point well put guys.

So, hopefully we can get somethin out of this seeing as we all agree for the most part.

Post by **NikovK** » 2005-11-07 06:14

That picture is just hillarious once you notice the "right handed sights".

Anyway! We don't actually have to make it uncontrollable, or immobilized. Just really, really painful to keep driving. No driver, no driving! For this, I suggest ramping up the fire effects, pushing "critical damage" further up the scale, removing all "cook off" effects and just let them burn and smoke until they disentigrate.

GRB · Post by **GRB** » 2005-11-07 06:25

NikovK wrote:That picture is just hillarious once you notice the "right handed sights".

Anyway! We don't actually have to make it uncontrollable, or immobilized. Just really, really painful to keep driving. No driver, no driving! For this, I suggest ramping up the fire effects, pushing "critical damage" further up the scale, removing all "cook off" effects and just let them burn and smoke until they disentigrate.

I wish it was that easy...

Post by **NikovK** » 2005-11-08 07:21

The beatings will continue until morale improves.