Snipers and other specialists should not be part of an infantry squad!

Apheirox · Post by **Apheirox** » 2007-07-06 01:17

A sniper should never find himself beside other infantry. If he does it means either he or the infantry is doing something wrong, often that the sniper is too close to the enemy and should be using a marksman or even rifleman kit instead.

A sniper is a strategic asset in himself, just like a squad, a tank or a jet is. He is not some kind of rifleman with a better scope. He is an entirely different kind of 'unit' than other infantry. Taken to the extreme, it could be said that a sniper is as different to other infantry as a tank is. If a squad needs a sniper they should be using a marksman - never the sniper. A sniper should always be engaging at extreme ranges, staying out of harms way. Even the scoring systemencourages this.

Because of this is I find it entirely wrong that the sniper is encouraged to be part of a squad, requiring several players in the squad to request his kit. He should in fact be encouraged not to be part of a squad as being in in one hurts both the squad and the team: The squad will not be at full strength, missing one man who is hiding up in the hills and the commander will not be able to give the sniper orders directly or receive intelligence reports from the sniper - something the sniper excels at.

I say we go in an entirely different direction. For starters, it would be a welcome change to require only one person in a squad to request a sniper kit. I would like to see this taken further, however: It should in fact not be possible to request the kit if there are non-sniper classes in the squad.

The system could be extended even further to encompass for example jets and helicopters which are just as bad to have in an infantry squad as snipers - again, it hurts both the squad and the team. Either pilots should be disallowed in squads with infantry or at least it jet pilots should. In general, I think promoting the separation of infantry, armour and aircraft squads is a good idea to ensure maximum team effectiveness and commander control.

DarkTalon · Post by **DarkTalon** » 2007-07-06 01:25

I like the idea, but for the most part players organize squads pretty well, i usually see cobra only squads, commander helper squads, infantry squads, and air superiority squads. theres always a kick and lock function if that fails.

Pvt.King · Post by **Pvt.King** » 2007-07-06 01:37

Strategist wrote:A sniper should never find himself beside other infantry. If he does it means either he or the infantry is doing something wrong, often that the sniper is too close to the enemy and should be using a marksman or even rifleman kit instead.

A sniper is a strategic asset in himself, just like a squad, a tank or a jet is. He is not some kind of rifleman with a better scope. He is an entirely different kind of 'unit' than other infantry. Taken to the extreme, it could be said that a sniper is as different to other infantry as a tank is. If a squad needs a sniper they should be using a marksman - never the sniper. A sniper should always be engaging at extreme ranges, staying out of harms way. Even the scoring systemencourages this.

Because of this is I find it entirely wrong that the sniper is encouraged to be part of a squad, requiring several players in the squad to request his kit. He should in fact be encouraged not to be part of a squad as being in in one hurts both the squad and the team: The squad will not be at full strength, missing one man who is hiding up in the hills and the commander will not be able to give the sniper orders directly or receive intelligence reports from the sniper - something the sniper excels at.

I say we go in an entirely different direction. For starters, it would be a welcome change to require only one person in a squad to request a sniper kit. I would like to see this taken further, however: It should in fact not be possible to request the kit if there are non-sniper classes in the squad.

The system could be extended even further to encompass for example jets and helicopters which are just as bad to have in an infantry squad as snipers - again, it hurts both the squad and the team. Either pilots should be disallowed in squads with infantry or at least it jet pilots should. In general, I think promoting the separation of infantry, armour and aircraft squads is a good idea to ensure maximum team effectiveness and commander control.

I think there should be a spotter with the shooter,
So, there sould be at least two men at one sniper TEAM...
"Snipers DO NOT work ALONE,you work as a TEAM.", I heard this from the movie "Jarhead", it's a good movie for those USMC scout snipers fans

eddie · Post by **eddie** » 2007-07-06 01:41

Hollywood lies. Although what you're saying is true, PR only has 32 players a side. Using one man to spot would be a) incredibly boring and b) a waste of manpower.

Welcome to the forums.

Strategist, what the hell, one person to request a sniper kit? If I wanted that I'd play BF2.

El_Vikingo · Post by **El_Vikingo** » 2007-07-06 01:58

What you are suggesting can only be achieved by the players them selves.

That...and the fact that only 2 or 3 maps will have 1km dview distance.

WNxKenwayy · Post by **WNxKenwayy** » 2007-07-06 02:06

Short Answer: No

Longer Answer: Hell no.

ArmedDrunk&Angry · Post by **ArmedDrunk&Angry** » 2007-07-06 02:39

Since this thread is all about things that will never be for more than one reason how about this ...... Ranked unlocks .... ?
What a concept eh ?
The higher your rank, the more weapons you can use ..... ?
Pretty good hunh ?
But make it a career path. You start with the DM as your selected career kit and you rank up based on accuracy and KDR until you get access to the other sniper rifles available.
So someone whith great pilot skills will not have access to the best sniper rifle just like a good sniper won't have access to a jet fighter.
You will have to wrok your way up the ranks to get the best equipment.
I am almost sure this won't cause any kind of stat padding problem.

Post by **Outlawz7** » 2007-07-06 02:42

Whats wrong with mechanized infantry squads?
4 guys go ahead and have 2 guys behind them in a tank and give each other support.

I agree on snipers working alone in a small squad, separate from the team, but doesnt really work that way in PR, since you need snipers with you, cos they cant see 2 km away and shoot the guy, thats annoying you...

Apheirox · Post by **Apheirox** » 2007-07-06 02:44

I can understand why some might find this too restrictive and prefer to leave it up to the players even though the mod already imposes a large number of restrictions on them, but why would you be against the sniper being able to request the kit on his own when that is how he is going to be working?

Vikingo: Snipers can work at less than 1000m ranges... In fact I doubt you can hit anything from that far away. All I am saying is snipers should not be confused with marksmen.

Post by **Outlawz7** » 2007-07-06 02:50

Agree on Sniper=/=Marksman, but isnt this another topic already?

Derail or not to derail, that is the question

Cheesygoodness · Post by **Cheesygoodness** » 2007-07-06 04:07

The reason the kits are setup as it is as far as I know.

Here is BF2v kit outload on a team

10 snipers that sit in the same spot going "Walk in front of my scope!".
10 medics that only revive you when your in a huge gunfight and die 6 times after till the other team kills the medic. Much to your happiness.
4 Spec Ops guys that load cars with C4 and drive around blowing up tanks.
7 Engineers sitting at the main base waiting for the tank or APC to spawn so they can rape another flag.
1 Support guy that will -NOT- give you ammo no matter how much you chase him around and ask.

PR is limiting the sniper rifle to large squads to help stop that and promote teamwork. (This isn't real life no matter what its a game. You aren't that far away and you can't hide as well or dig your own hides.)

The_motivator · Post by **The_motivator** » 2007-07-06 05:40

Pvt.King wrote:I think there should be a spotter with the shooter,
So, there sould be at least two men at one sniper TEAM...
"Snipers DO NOT work ALONE,you work as a TEAM.", I heard this from the movie "Jarhead", it's a good movie for those USMC scout snipers fans

0/10 for referencing Jarhead.

Swafford, as he portrays himself in his book and movie, is what is called in the Corps, a Shitbird.

Snipers do work in teams however. Most often, the better shooter is the spotter. Though, in Viet Nam, Carlos Hathcock (a much better person to be referencing) would often roll by himself, it almost invariably ended up with him nearly getting smoked.

VipersGhost · Post by **VipersGhost** » 2007-07-06 06:10

Hathcock, the infamous "through the scope, because I saw some weird light" kill...brilliant man. 30 kills in a sitting, poor bloks behind a burm...some VC on a bike 2500 meters off or something rediculous like that. I love those carlos books, he made that M40....btw where is our M40? I'd take that thing any day.

Expendable Grunt · Post by **Expendable Grunt** » 2007-07-06 06:13

Is an engagement of 64 people even grounds for a sniper? I don't know how sniper "deployment" works in real life, I'd imagine they would be for larger scale fights with more "important" targets, or for recon stuff. Could be wrong though.

Cheesygoodness · Post by **Cheesygoodness** » 2007-07-06 07:34

Expendable Grunt wrote:Is an engagement of 64 people even grounds for a sniper? I don't know how sniper "deployment" works in real life, I'd imagine they would be for larger scale fights with more "important" targets, or for recon stuff. Could be wrong though.

Its a much larger engagement, Its only 64 at a time because of servers however everytime you 'respawn.' Its another soldier hitting that part of the battlefield. Along with most maps are smaller sections of the fighting.

mammikoura · Post by **mammikoura** » 2007-07-06 07:57

eddie wrote:Hollywood lies. Although what you're saying is true, PR only has 32 players a side. Using one man to spot would be a) incredibly boring and b) a waste of manpower.

Welcome to the forums.

a) actually I like being the spotter. Maybe even more than being the sniper. Of course you need a good guy there with you, spotting for some random dude on a pub might not be so much fan as being a sniper team with someone you have played a long time with.

b) well, maybe. But you probably are still doing more for the team than most of the lonewolf guys who run around the map by themselves. And even as a spotter you do get kills once in a while, the m4 is pretty decent even at longer ranges.

Longbow* · Post by Longbow* » 2007-07-06 12:18

VipersGhost wrote:....btw where is our M40?

0.6

Long Bow · Post by **Long Bow** » 2007-07-06 14:54

VipersGhost wrote:Hathcock, the infamous "through the scope, because I saw some weird light" kill...brilliant man. 30 kills in a sitting, poor bloks behind a burm...some VC on a bike 2500 meters off or something rediculous like that. I love those carlos books, he made that M40....btw where is our M40? I'd take that thing any day.

I remeber reading some books on him and just thinking WTF!! this man is no mear mortal. He is some ancient Greek good of ownage (and patience)! He is the original and only 733t sniper

I agree with the sniper theory strategist but with only 32 players per team you really have to be dynamic and creative with your squad. Some times you have to do some un-orthodox load outs to get things done. If we ever do manage to get up to 40 or 50 per team I would love to see some new rules come in to make it more true to life.