Attack helos -- pilot = pilot, gunner = gunner

Artnez · Post by **Artnez** » 2005-11-26 11:33

Don't know how realistic this is (haven't done my research on this one), but shouldn't the helo pilots not have access to the onboard weapons systems? Well, they could have access in real life.. but do they use it? Shouldn't the pilots stick to flying?

I was thinking about methods to increase chopper effectiveness (as they are currently useless to the battle, in the long run).

One thing that popped into mind is that the gunner has alot of trouble getting kills because the pilot is flying for himself. Anyone find it funny that the chopper has to tip forward every time the pilot wants to shoot the missiles? I have seen this in real life, but not to the extent that is seen in BF2.

Maybe it would help if the gunners arsenal was increased, while the pilot only given the ability to fly. That way, choppers can be destructive, but only when in the use of people willing to play as a team.

The pilot should worry about two things:
a) Keeping the bird safe.
b) Lining up the shot for the gunner.

It's very rare to see choppers hover at a distance and take targets out with the tv guided missile fired by the gunner. More often, you see choppers flying around and looping like planes do.. which I really think isn't their purpose.. could be wrong though.

And while I'm at it.. maybe it might be a good idea to increase the max. panning that the tv guided missiles can do. What ends up happening is that to take out a tank (what the TV guided missiles are for), the pilot has to line the chopper up very low, which is right in the path of the tank.

Beckwith · Post by **Beckwith** » 2005-11-26 16:11

i disagree, if the choppers arent being used properly its the players fault, not the design or lay out, when people work together (pilot-gunner) IE in tournaments it can be a very very powerful tool

Resjah · Post by **Resjah** » 2005-11-26 16:19

I think the Pilot and gunner should be seperate and the pilot concentrate on flying and the gunner concentrate on...well...gunning ,im not sure if that is actually what its like in real life but i think it would be better for the game.

*edit*

<<<-------whats with the little red square under posts?says i have had a little shameless behaivor in the past,What was that from?

USAF-Marshall · Post by **USAF-Marshall** » 2005-11-27 02:42

In reality the communication between the pilot and gunner are key, along with the fact that usually when you are attacking something (Especially with the laser guided missles) you arent right on top of them like you are in the game. You would hit them from long ranges which didnt require any sparatic movement from the helo to prevent damage from ground fire and let the guner hit the target.

Heydude235 · Post by **Heydude235** » 2005-11-27 02:48

I love this idea this would make more teamwork. Also in rl a helicopter would never take off with out a gunner. But in bf2 some times someone will grab a helicopter with out a gunner. This would make more teamwork. Im all for this idea.

GRB · Post by **GRB** » 2005-11-27 07:51

I agree.

One thing I think that may help and can be slightly less drastic than disarming the pilot, may be to allow the gunner to have an unlocked camera view on the helicopters as well as the targetting squares.(like on the SU

) (Maybe we can even toss in fire and forgets?) (hell maybe we could even get target selection!!?)

We all know its possible. (maybe not target selection)

Maybe a combination of the two would make helos well, almost the most realistic they can get in my opinion. As far as circumstancial realistic experiences goes anyways.

(personally I'de go for the combo.)

Now to counter this and keep it from getting out of control (besides more effective AA) and create THE most realistic experience possible, I think that the missles (considering they are Fire and Forget) should have quite a limited turning radius as well as travel at a fairly high velocity. This will force the helicopters to have to stay back quite a distance in order to be effective.

In most cases if a helo goes into enemy territory with known AA emplacements it would be toast. The solution is to stay back and work undetected.

(imagine the addition of a Kiowa Warrior with radar..you wanna talk about teamwork..shiiiet..

)

I think this would set things off quite nice. Well, that's my opinion anyways....

Armand61685 · Post by **Armand61685** » 2005-11-27 08:44

Oh, and adding a optical zoom or camera zoom for the gunner would be awesome. I've seen videos from the nose cam of a gunner where he has zoom capabilities (very powerful zoom at that).

GRB · Post by **GRB** » 2005-11-27 09:12

Armand61685 wrote:Oh, and adding a optical zoom or camera zoom for the gunner would be awesome. I've seen videos from the nose cam of a gunner where he has zoom capabilities (very powerful zoom at that).

Hey why not..Seems perfectly logical to me. Only thing about that is, how would it be done?

Right click couldnt be used because that's used to switch to the Hellfires. Maybe something similar to the armored vehicles?

DEDMON5811 · Post by **DEDMON5811** » 2005-11-27 16:31

How about adding flear for the driver.

GRB · Post by **GRB** » 2005-11-27 16:44

What is flear? Are you talking about FLIR? Forward Looking Infrared Radar?

Eddie Baker · Post by **Eddie Baker** » 2005-11-27 19:51

'[R-PUB wrote:Artnez.com']Don't know how realistic this is (haven't done my research on this one), but shouldn't the helo pilots not have access to the onboard weapons systems? Well, they could have access in real life.. but do they use it? Shouldn't the pilots stick to flying?

Both the pilot and CPG have access to the weapons in real life. According to an Apache pilot, the pilot's primary weapon responsibility is actually the M230 chaingun, since he is supposed to engage targets within a certain range of the aircraft. Since we do not have HAT support for BF2 to make this easier and it would require some very inventive coding (and some "split-screen" graphics so that the pilot could have visibility through the TADS and still fly the helo), it makes more sense for gameplay to have the CPG control the ATGMs and chin-turret.

'[R-PUB wrote:GRB'](imagine the addition of a Kiowa Warrior with radar..you wanna talk about teamwork..shiiiet.. )

The "orange on a toothpick" above the Kiowa's main rotor is not a radar, as on the Longbow, but the mast-mounted sight (MMS) filled with electro-optical observation and target designation equipment. Pretty much like a periscope for a helicopter. It is used to designate targets for laser-guided ordnance (artillery rounds, bombs and missiles), including any Hellfires mounted on the Kiowa itself.

GRB · Post by **GRB** » 2005-11-27 20:53

Either way, imagine the teamwork that could be achieved with that setup.

With the AH-64D and this setup, it would be quite at interesting experience on maps that contain the helo..

But my idea can be done wether you disarm the pilot or not...

Cerberus · Post by **Cerberus** » 2005-11-28 02:29

Get rid of spec ops altogether, with the exception being on Spec Ops maps.

Post by **BrokenArrow** » 2005-11-28 02:49

i agree with cerberus. as far as arty goes, my feeling is that player opperated arty needs to totally replace commander arty and a way of directing it needs to be found. i have no problem with being caught in a storm of arty, so long as it isnt falling from the hand of God as it seems to be now.

GRB · Post by **GRB** » 2005-11-28 02:52

'[R-PUB wrote:BrokenArrow']i agree with cerberus. as far as arty goes, my feeling is that player opperated arty needs to totally replace commander arty and a way of directing it needs to be found. i have no problem with being caught in a storm of arty, so long as it isnt falling from the hand of God as it seems to be now.

Agreed on many different levels..lol.

Yea, I think player controlled Mortars and some kind of target aqcuisition method would be a much better solution than the commander artillery.

E7-JS · Post by **E7-JS** » 2005-11-28 02:56

I would really like to see a 60L DAP like something out of Campbell with an M230 and all, but I guess the apache has that role, As far as commander goes it would be nice to limit the god type role from it or a longer delay on support

phlerp · Post by **phlerp** » 2005-11-28 03:13

Fire and forget missiles in helicopters like the ones in the aircrafts wouldn't be a very good idea. That wold make the choppers ridiculously powerful. With a good pilot and gunner they are already über deadly. A missile that needs designation from a ground soldier or another chopper would truly be awesome, but I think it could ruin the balance of the game.

Noetheinner · Post by **Noetheinner** » 2005-11-28 04:44

Did you know that even though both the pilot and co-pilot can move the turret with their helmets, the prefered way is using the "joystick" in the front seat. Since the guns can engage from a very far distance, the gunner will actually use the touch sensitive "joystick" along with the FLIR for uber accuracy. Since the FLIR in RL has 3 ( 2? I think it's 3. DAMN YOU MEMORY! ) different zoom cameras, you can imagine how accurate they can be with that thing. The reason they don't use the helmet mounts very often is cause they have to be calibrated for each and every different pilot that flys that bird. Not every pilot is the same height/sits in the same position ya know.

By the by, the missles on the cobra that are on the pylons look to me like hellfires, but you kinda aim it like a TOW with the point and click stuff. Just my opinion.

minigunmonk · Post by **minigunmonk** » 2005-11-28 10:32

I think the biggest prob with BF2 heli operation is the users not the heli systems. The only addition i think is required, being a zoom function, just like tyhe zoom for prmm armour would be fine.