Scopes??? Why???

CaptRio · Post by **CaptRio** » 2007-07-23 15:13

Hey guys,

Nice Job on the mod.

But I really don't get why every single riflemen rifle has a scope. Ironsights are much more realistic and make the firefights last longer.

Just my $0.02

El_Vikingo · Post by **El_Vikingo** » 2007-07-23 15:19

Because Scopes are much more realistic.

demonicklown445 · Post by **demonicklown445** » 2007-07-23 15:46

Because its more realistic in use that just ironsights for the riflemen, they might not zoom much, but it helps you see your target.

Eddiereyes909 · Post by **Eddiereyes909** » 2007-07-23 15:46

because today more and more troops are being given scoped on their rifles

its not just for the "ub3r13375niP3rZ

Artnez · Post by **Artnez** » 2007-07-23 16:00

Everyone does not have scoped rifles in-game. Only rifleman and squad leader with a few exceptions such as Spec Ops, but that scope is really for medium engagement anyway.

The specialists, such as Medic, Engineer, Anti-Tank Rifleman, Grenadier, etc do not have scopes because their primary role is not killing. As the United States Marines say, "You're a rifleman first, and a [insert your specialist role] second."

When it comes to modern infantry tactics, it's more about location than firepower nowadays (this excludes heavy weapons and air support of course). Even the cheapest weapon systems that rebels are supplied with are powerful enough to do some serious damage. So in other words, the side that starts off firing first is usually the side that wins that particular engagement as long as they chose their location properly.

I'm sure scopes annoy you because it feels like you're getting sniped all of the time, which is frustrating at first. Just remember to move tactically from cover to cover. Make it second nature. When you are in the middle of an area with 0 cover, you should feel uneasy and get yourself to cover.

$kelet0r · Post by **$kelet0r** » 2007-07-23 16:14

In fact probably more infantrymen should have the scopes than is currently represented ingame. This is 'now' realistic - modern armies issue their troops with scopes, and aimpoints instead of ironsights as standard ... and where they don't, soldiers buy their own anyway

Gaz · Post by **Gaz** » 2007-07-23 16:30

Recruits are taught how to shoot using ironsights. THEN they are taught how to use the scopes.

In conflict regions, most western armies now issue or have been issuing Infantry troops scopes with weapons. They are useful as observation devices, not just aiming aids.

SUPPORT elements usually carry ironsights, although this has to be addressed within gameplay in case we create a super-class (read 0.4 Spec Ops).

Please don't come back with AT infantry and medics (team medics, not specialised field hospital medics) carry scoped weapons. This is a RL reality that these 'classes' of soldiers are still front line. However, read my last paragraph to see why they are not represented with scopes ingame

Please search for similar topics in the past. Pretty sure this has been explained quite a few times since the OB was first released, and even before that.

CaptRio · Post by **CaptRio** » 2007-07-23 17:50

'[R-DEV wrote:Gaz']Recruits are taught how to shoot using ironsights. THEN they are taught how to use the scopes.

In conflict regions, most western armies now issue or have been issuing Infantry troops scopes with weapons. They are useful as observation devices, not just aiming aids.

With those kind of zoom the marksman class is useless. Theres almost no diference between the riflemen and marksmen class.

Whats the M16 scope zoom that the USMC uses? 2x?

ZaZZo · Post by **ZaZZo** » 2007-07-23 17:55

One word: Realism

EDIT: Just hopped into the thread and made a post... Didn't see the others lol

Artnez · Post by **Artnez** » 2007-07-23 17:56

CaptRio wrote:With those kind of zoom the marksman class is useless. Theres almost no diference between the riflemen and marksmen class.

Whats the M16 scope zoom that the USMC uses? 2x?

Read the guide bro.

Important: Assault Rifles in Project Reality are "zeroed" at 300m. With the BF2 engine this means that you will only have to compensate for the bullets trajectory at distances greater than this.

Precision Rifles are basically Assault Rifles with more range and sometimes a larger calibre. They are usually semi-automatic weapons and are best used to support your squad in taking out targets that are out of the effective range of the other rifles.

Important: DM Rifles in Project Reality are "zeroed" at 600m. With the BF2 engine this means that you will only have to compensate for the bullets trajectory at distances greater than this.

Post by **eggman** » 2007-07-23 18:35

This is a candidate for a dumb thread award (aka lock).

Just about all modern militaries issue some sort of scope to their Rifleman.

Those are typically 4x scopes as we have modelled in game. The US currently uses a 4x iron sight zoom because we have not completed their weapons.

Rifleman typically use a 7.62 calibre weapon and also typically have a higher powered scope.

The MEC are an exception as they use a 7.62 calibre main assault rifle.

I am not saying there are not game play issues as a result of the 4x Rifleman scopes, but that is why PR is still a WIP .. we're sorting out those issues as we discover them but in all cases we are trying to inject realism and then find out what that broke and then inject more realism as a means of correcting it.

In this case we need to model more realism in the view distances and engagement ranges and we're working on that.

CaptRio · Post by **CaptRio** » 2007-07-23 18:56

'[R-DEV wrote:eggman']This is a candidate for a dumb thread award (aka lock).

No need to be rude, sir. Im sure you're way better than that.

Just about all modern militaries issue some sort of scope to their Rifleman.

Those are typically 4x scopes as we have modelled in game. The US currently uses a 4x iron sight zoom because we have not completed their weapons.

Rifleman typically use a 7.62 calibre weapon and also typically have a higher powered scope.

The MEC are an exception as they use a 7.62 calibre main assault rifle.

Word.

I am not saying there are not game play issues as a result of the 4x Rifleman scopes, but that is why PR is still a WIP .. we're sorting out those issues as we discover them but in all cases we are trying to inject realism and then find out what that broke and then inject more realism as a means of correcting it.

In this case we need to model more realism in the view distances and engagement ranges and we're working on that.

That's exactly the kind of official explanation every player wants to read.

Thanks for your time and clarification.

billdan · Post by **billdan** » 2007-07-23 19:04

a little early but im worried about balance issues when the US Army is introduced. they issue aimpoints to a lot of frontline soldiers, unlike the marines and their acog...

Rico11b · Post by **Rico11b** » 2007-07-23 19:52

billdan wrote:a little early but im worried about balance issues when the US Army is introduced. they issue aimpoints to a lot of frontline soldiers, unlike the marines and their acog...

US Army troops can get ACOGs as well. The aimpoint scope is a better choice for CQB when compared to the ACOG.

Rico11b · Post by **Rico11b** » 2007-07-23 20:47

One must be careful to put to much reliance on a scope for shooting accurately. Just because you give a scoped rifle to a shooter does not make him a better shooter. If any of you guys out there have ever looked through a scope on a rifle you will quickly learn that the scope will magnify not only a distant target but more importantly it WILL magnify ALL of your movements as well. If you are in a rock solid stable body position you can even notice how your breathing and heartbeat cause the scope to move around just a little bit. Now if you have been running and are now out of breath it will be next to impossible to get the same level of accuracy as when you are rested and calm. While standing up take a rifle without a scope and aim the open sights at a distant target. You may notice that the rifle is EASY to hold and seems to give a very stable sight picture. Now take that same rifle and quickly put a scope on it. Now aim at the same target as before while standing in the same place. What did you notice? Well first off you will notice that it is much harder to hold the scope onto the target. You will also notice that the sight picture is harder to acquire and hold for more than a second or 2. The scope seems to be constantly on the move and no matter what you do, you can't seem to get it to stop moving. Hence the need to kneel or go prone. Because they provide a more stable body position than standing up.

A scopes job is to provide better resolution of the target. When using iron sights and aiming center mass you have a reasonably good change of hitting a distant target, but with a scope instead of aiming center mass of a human target, NOW you can zoom right in and aim center mass on the shirt pocket of the target. So now when you fire the round while aiming center mass on the shirt pocket you are more likely to hit the target. You now have a higher percentage change of a first round hit. It’s all about probability of a first round hit. MOST of the time you will miss the shirt pocket on the target, and land you round somewhere in the chest area, but you still hit the target right

Technically you missed cause you were aiming at the shirt pocket right? It's called aim small, miss small. Scopes allow a shooter to do that, but it doesn't make him a better shot it just makes it easier for him to pick a smaller target on the overall target. The stronger the power of the scope the longer it takes to acquire the target once a target presents itself. That can make the scope a real disadvantage if the target is only in the exposed for a second or 2, or if the target is close. Also if you are within the max effective range of the enemy’s rifle you loss the “ballistic advantage” of your weapon system not to mention that he is now close enough to see you and he can engage you without a scope. As he gets closer and closer, your scope becomes more and more useless.

R

azn_chopsticks_boi · Post by **azn_chopsticks_boi** » 2007-07-23 20:54

Artnez.com wrote:
The specialists, such as Medic, Engineer, Anti-Tank Rifleman, Grenadier, etc do not have scopes because their primary role is not killing. As the United States Marines say, "You're a rifleman first, and a [insert your specialist role] second."

grenadiers r getting scopes bro

GR34 · Post by **GR34** » 2007-07-23 23:14

Artnez.com wrote:Everyone does not have scoped rifles in-game. Only rifleman and squad leader with a few exceptions such as Spec Ops, but that scope is really for medium engagement anyway.

The specialists, such as Medic, Engineer, Anti-Tank Rifleman, Grenadier, etc do not have scopes because their primary role is not killing. As the United States Marines say, "You're a rifleman first, and a [insert your specialist role] second."

Thats not true the Chinese Grenadier has a scope on his gun so he is basically the uber1337haxorz kit

sekiryu · Post by **sekiryu** » 2007-07-24 00:31

I have yet to see a Marine M16A4 that doesn't have an ACOG mounted. From the footage of Fallujah, they all have ACOGs, PEQs, tactical light, and either a vertical foregrip, or an M203.

Post by **eggman** » 2007-07-24 02:42

CaptRio wrote:No need to be rude, sir. Im sure you're way better than that.

er.. sorry .. just get a lot of these posts