jets overpowered / anti-air underpowered

Wolfe · Post by **Wolfe** » 2007-07-27 07:49

Frogfoot/A10

Can dive straight down at the ground target, attack and destroy, then pull up 1000 feet off the deck and go straight back up again (and never be within sight of mobile aa).
Turns in a very tight radius, making it difficult for air superiority jets to keep up.
Seems to have many hitpoints; multiple hits with guns does damage, but continues to fly without complication.

Mobile Anti-Air

Mobile AA cannot shoot up to defend against "loop bombing".
Missiles rarely hit (missiles target chaff or the enemy jet outruns/out maneuvers the missiles)
Main flak gun near impossible to hit flying targets.

Combined, jets are overpowered and anti-air is underpowered.

IRL, the frogfoot/A10 would never be used where enemy jets and/or ground AA were present; their purpose is to annihilate ground targets AFTER the air war is won, not during. This is primarily because the frogfoot/A10 is not the most maneverable planes in the sky and would be shot down almost instantly in the presence of a mig or F16.

On Kashan, for example, this is not the case. The frogfoot/A10 can repeatedly attack ground targets while evading F16's mig's in the process (partly because the missile systems are lacking). They can also (nearly) outfly the mig and f16 in the hands of skilled pilots with sticks, and that's not very realistic.

Don't get me wrong, I love jets, but it seems to me that jets/anti-air should be tweaked in the following manner:

Reduce aircraft hitpoints, making them easier to damage/kill
Reduce the aircraft spawn timers; all it takes is for 1 or 2 people to crash the jets on takeoff, then it's 20+ minutes of no air cover. This is devastating to armor on the ground. 1 or 2 people shouldn't have that much power over their team.
Reduce frogfoot/A10 speed and maneuverability; to at least prevent the straight down attack then insta-pull up, preventing them from ever being hit.
Increase AA stinger flight speed and maneuverability, making jets easier to hit once a lock-on is achieved.
Increase main flak gun damage

In short, mobile AA and hand-held stingers should be far more effective against aircraft than they are right now, instead of the frogfoot/A10 being able to effectively dominate the map. When friendly pilots crash on takeoff, the backup mobile AA system, traveling with a tank, should be an effective deterant against aircraft, not just another easy target.

Post by **Chuc** » 2007-07-27 08:31

I'm more inclined to use the AA cannons in an anti-infantry role, anti-aircraft second. But the cannons are devastating to light vehicles and even APCs. Not too sure about tanks, so maybe increasing the damage output for them might not be such a good idea.

CAS_117 · Post by **CAS_117** » 2007-07-27 09:26

Missiles in general are pretty bad. I expect a much more realistic use of aircraft and vehicle tactics once the missiles are upgraded. I assume that once missiles lethiality and accuracy is increased, the same way bullets were, that air and vehicle tactics in general will most likely be completely altered to the degree that infantry fighting was. So most likely no more top gun/ starwars bs. For now, just let the MiGs deal with the A-10s.

HABO3 · Post by **HABO3** » 2007-07-27 09:33

how realistic is a mobile AA missile hitting a friendly jet? I hit one today and got punished for it. It was like playing the old vanilla BF2 all over again. Another thing that sucks is that the mobile AA guns overheat REALLY quick. That might've been purposely done to prevent mobile from completely owning infantry but I dunno, you can't even track a jet with the guns because they overheat before you find the right lead.

Also wouldn't the LAV-AD (Air Defense) make way more sense than the Bradley? That cannon has such a slow rate of fire I don't even wanna think about trying to hit a speedy F-16 with it.

IAJTHOMAS · Post by **IAJTHOMAS** » 2007-07-27 10:46

Jets are fine, but I do wish the AA was a bit better. IMHO the AA should be a thing to be avoided, creating almost a no fly zone in the area, rather than just becoming a priority target before going back to mashing the other ground forces. Taking on AA should be something which is only done as a last resort by a pilot.

Jets should have to rely on ground forces taking out AA in the same way as ground forces rely on CAS to take out armoured threats.

Bonsai · Post by **Bonsai** » 2007-07-27 11:42

...wait for 0.7?

Post by **Mongolian_dude** » 2007-07-27 16:57

Actualy, id have to agree thatAttack Jets(A-10/SU-25) are overpowered and anti air is underpowered.

Everything presented in the 1st post is true.
I have tested a linebacker Vs a SU-25 with DukeMeister, where the SU-25 made a gun run(Low level, head-on at the Linebacker), to see which won out.

Despte Putting numerous rounds into the nose on the SU, aswell as 3 Surface to air missiles(all of which hit), it seems that the outcome was SU-25 prevails, badly damaged(not criticaly).

-Surface to air missiles are slightly to slow to have much affect, nore are they manouverable enough to handle the enemy aircraft(even 4 missiles at a time).

-Attack Jets have too many hit points. One air-2-air or surface-2-air should sevearly damaged an SU-25/A-10 if it is sucsessful, leaving it vaunarable to guns or forcing it to RTB. Also, raking an attack jet with AAA should be enough to force it away. Also, it may balance AAA vs Atk jets if Laser guided missiles didnt have the capability to lock onto AAA.

-Fighters are too manouverable at top speed(Probly hard coded). Surface-2-air have no chance of hitting these.

-The linebacker has a useless rate of fire and packs a neglegable punch. Perhaps if the linebacker packed the same punch as some of those AAA Cannons, which are present in Proving Grounds, to make up for the 1/1,000,000 chance of hitting.

...mongol...

3===SPECTER===3 · Post by **3===SPECTER===3** » 2007-07-27 17:06

I think the turning on the F-16s and Migs in ridiculous! u pull a turn at that speed your bound to pass out from Gs.

youm0nt · Post by **youm0nt** » 2007-07-27 17:11

Speaking of underpowered and overpowered vehicles, did the devs increase the damage of the miniguns on the Blackhawks? I remember people saying in the beta 0.6 the miniguns just didn't kill infantry...

WNxKenwayy · Post by **WNxKenwayy** » 2007-07-27 17:33

The AA vs Aircraft is all balanced out by the utter suckage of all but like 2 PR pilots. All aircraft crash within 2 minutes of take off anyways, so who cares.

Post by **Mongolian_dude** » 2007-07-27 17:36

WNxKenwayy wrote:The AA vs Aircraft is all balanced out by the utter suckage of all but like 2 PR pilots. All aircraft crash within 2 minutes of take off anyways, so who cares.

Actualy, thats a damn good point.

...mongol...

Post by **Dunehunter** » 2007-07-27 17:39

Actually, no. On Kashan, at one point, we had both of the F16s and both of the A10s in the air in one squad with all of the pilots having VOIP, and the SL relaying orders from the commander to us. The other side didn't really stand much of a chance.

Post by **Falkun** » 2007-07-27 18:02

What if the bombers didn't have the lock-on box for anything? The pilot would have to depend on infantry spotting out troops, and/or the SL/Comm giving out attack markers to know where all the ground targets are at. Additionally, the pilot would have to judge when he had a lock-on.

GR34 · Post by **GR34** » 2007-07-27 19:30

Wolfe wrote:Frogfoot/A10

[*]Main flak gun near impossible to hit flying targets.
[/list]

On Kashan with the Mec AA vehicle I shot down 2 F16's and an A10 in a row with the flack guns, on the other had missiles are completely Useless! To hit them just led them and let loose it really easy to hit them when they are turning towards you or flying straight at or away from you!

youm0nt wrote:Speaking of underpowered and overpowered vehicles, did the devs increase the damage of the miniguns on the Blackhawks? I remember people saying in the beta 0.6 the miniguns just didn't kill infantry...

yea in the new .6 I have yet to be killed by Mini guns I have had there rounds land all around me but not hur me i had one land between my feet and nothing They are almost as bad and the 1.3 mini guns. But in the end I usually shoot the gunner with my SVD

Wolfe · Post by **Wolfe** » 2007-07-27 20:03

The blackhawk minigun is ineffective; last night on Quai I was spraying troops out in the open at the fishing village; don't think I hit anyone and was sniped out of the seat by the guy I was shooting at 2 seconds later. At minimum, the minigun should force people's head down, not calmly take a knee and kill everyone inside.

Had better luck when I scrapped the minigun and instead shot the heavy AT out the window at troops, tanks, and apc's.

As for jets not being overpowered; I think they are overpowered just by the nature of their insane maneuverability. IRL the Frog/A10 fly under 200 mph and turn very slowly but in-game they are much faster and can out-turn a fighter.

Post by **fuzzhead** » 2007-07-27 20:35

I would LOVE to see attack jets acting more realistically: carrying out 'fire missions' and then returning to friendly airspace.

What I mean is that if an attack jet is stupid enough to get within AA range, it should be easy picking for the AA gunner.

Attack jet should by nature be extremely cautious where he flies, he should get in and out as fast as possible.

Right now what we see is it DOMINATES the entire battlefield, killing everything in its path.

It feels more like an angry fire breathing dragon than a Close Air 'Support' tool.

It should require FAR MORE teamwork to effectively use an Attack Jet than it currently does. If the pilot does not have help from the ground troops he should be a very easy target when he gets close to the ground (IE less than 1000 meters).

What none of the pilots are really aware is max ceiling goes up to 5000!