Remove Squad Leader spawn point

[Tartantyco]

Further more, removing the SL spawn point will kill teamplay on public servers. Let's face it, how many squads would wait 5 minutes for the last member to arrive after a 5k walk?

-Many, in my experience... Only in 1 out of 5 squads I set up do I have problems setting up rallies and then I just kick the uncooperative ones and I'll have the RP up eventually. And what's this whining about removing SL spawn killing teamwork? Most of the time I play only my squad has RP up, only we stick together, only have coordinated assaults, etc. What is this teamwork you are talking about? It is precisely because you have these "get right into the action" spawns that this is possible, you can solo, it is a viable tactic. Unless teamwork is essential to victory it will not be common, unless we remove arcade features people will not leave arcade tactics behind, it's that simple. I've said it before and I'll say it again; realism is fun gameplay. If you want "fun gameplay" then make the PGMM...

[IAJTHOMAS]

arrive after a 5k walk?

You mean a 100m walk from the rally? I agree that the requirements for rally should be dropped to perhaps just SL, or one guy and SL.

Destroying a rally is similar to having your suppy line cut. When this happen's you either fall back and restablish them (e.g. make a new rally) or unless releif breaks through, you are strangled in to submission, and your squad dies. You should just be able to have people spawn directly in to a front line fire fight. 100m isn't a marathon guys!

And remember, people will adapt their gamplay, rallys will be reset and hperfully as COs get better, more spawning option will become available at flags via bunkers, and at other location through firebases.

Perhaps if SL spawning is removed, a free bunker could be allowed for every flag currently held by your team, minus the main, encouraging bunker building and meaning that if the worst comes to the worst you spawn a flag back, not at the main.

[fuzzhead]

Thank you tartantyco, I agree compeletely.

IMO, the 'instant action' spawns is what is killing the teamwork in PR, not the other way around.

That would be great if PR was a mindless, thoughtless shooter, but I would like to think theres slightly more to it than that instant action gratification..

A huge part of tactics IRL is getting into the right position, and with instant spawnpoints like squadleader, it basically negates any kind of advantage that would have, and your free to lonewolf your way around the map using hte squad leader as your personal mobile spawnpoint when things dont go so well for you...

[Ace42]

-Many, in my experience... Only in 1 out of 5 squads I set up do I have problems setting up rallies and then I just kick the uncooperative ones and I'll have the RP up eventually. (...) Most of the time I play only my squad has RP up, only we stick together, only have coordinated assaults, etc.

So, to rephrase this, you kick the non-team-orientated players, put together a squad of people who will play, and then from this come to the conclusion there's no problem, even though 5/6ths of the team clearly AREN'T capable of team-playing and have to be booted? Great for you and 5 other people, not so great for the everyone else that gets stuck with the dregs.

Unless teamwork is essential to victory it will not be common, unless we remove arcade features people will not leave arcade tactics behind, it's that simple. I've said it before and I'll say it again; realism is fun gameplay. If you want "fun gameplay" then make the PGMM...

That is such a lot of rubbish. If reality was so fun, people would be joining the army to get paid for this sort of thing, you'd wipe your drive and never play PR again once you get shot, and all games would involve flipping burgers, filling papers, answering telephones, etc etc. If a player wants to lone-wolf and can't, they'll leave. You're playing the game because it's a game. If you wanted reality, you'd be playing a flight-sim or paintball, or *doing real stuff*.

You know what's essential to victory? Building bunkers and having a dedicated engineer stick close to the commander. And I've done that time and again. And it's freaking boring after the first half a dozen maps, so *I don't do it*. No-one does unless you slap them repeatedly and loudly enough. All that will happen is that people will continue doing whatever they want, say "gah, the balance on this mod is rubbish" and they'll leave. So you'll have a mod that only suits a very few people, end up with like 3 populated servers (check OPK to see this in action), and every game is exactly the same because every team is comprised of the same people using the same tactics because the entire community has shrunk to like 128 people spread across 12 timezones.

Am I saying that removing squad leader spawn will do this? Nope, as I said I can see pros and cons. What I am saying is that hyper-realism mods invariably suck and are totally unplayable, and only a group of hardcore fringe gamers bother with them. Push enough people away, and it snowballs. It's harder to find a populated server, when you get on everyone is too experienced so new players get shouted and killed, people leave. You end up with a ghost-town.

Gameplay must always come first, and trying to pretend that gameplay and reality are synonymous is totally irrational and down-right wrong.

[indigo|blade]

fuzzhead']Thank you tartantyco, I agree compeletely.

IMO, the 'instant action' spawns is what is killing the teamwork in PR, not the other way around.

That would be great if PR was a mindless, thoughtless shooter, but I would like to think theres slightly more to it than that instant action gratification..

A huge part of tactics IRL is getting into the right position, and with instant spawnpoints like squadleader, it basically negates any kind of advantage that would have, and your free to lonewolf your way around the map using hte squad leader as your personal mobile spawnpoint when things dont go so well for you...

I don't see how spawning on the SL is killing teamwork. You'll have to explain. Spawning on the leader of the pack has helped my squad work better as a group, never worse.

As for lone wolves "using the SL", if such a person were in your squad they wouldn't last long there. I know they wouldn't last long in mine.

I think you may be frustrated with a deeper gameplay feature or personal experience on a server somewhere. It's ok fuzzhead, you can vent here, we understand. Been there done that.

I suppose I'll just agree to disagree with you, regardless if spawning on the SL stays or not.

[IAJTHOMAS]

I don't see how spawning on the SL is killing teamwork. You'll have to explain. Spawning on the leader of the pack has helped my squad work better as a group, never worse.

Think about it from the other squads perspective, he may have set up a great ambush, got his squad to move togther, keep quiet etc etc. They open up on you killing all but the SL. 30 seconds later these 5 kills are meaningless as they have respawned an know exactly where you are. T

[DirtyHarry88]

This would make everyone use rally points, I'm for it.

[Ace42]

he may have set up a great ambush, got his squad to move togther, keep quiet etc etc. They open up on you killing all but the SL.

The whole point of an ambush is you have the element of surprise. If it was a "great" ambush, then taking out SL / medics should be the first priority and you should've had the time to pick out the SL from the pack with binocs, or whichever. And on insurgent maps, chances of the whole squad respawning in "30 secs" is slim to none. 5 min respawns aren't uncommon

[pasfreak]

Yeah I agree with above...I mean, a rally point should be used for what it is supposed to be- rally and gather ppl. so people would have to wait for others to spawn on the rally and go out and attack. only problem is, spawn times are way too long for this to occur...

and maybe making rally pts a little easier to make would help too, like eliminate the within 100 m radius of flags n such.

[fuzzhead]

i would agree with removing 100 meter radius on flag for rally, to make them easier to manage...

[Tartantyco]

So, to rephrase this, you kick the non-team-orientated players, put together a squad of people who will play, and then from this come to the conclusion there's no problem, even though 5/6ths of the team clearly AREN'T capable of team-playing and have to be booted? Great for you and 5 other people, not so great for the everyone else that gets stuck with the dregs.

-You seem to have missed the part where I say that 4/5th of the squads play fine, and never did I say that the 5th squad was filled with non-teamwork players, just a few are.

That is such a lot of rubbish. If reality was so fun, people would be joining the army to get paid for this sort of thing,

-Well, I did...

you'd wipe your drive and never play PR again once you get shot, and all games would involve flipping burgers, filling papers, answering telephones, etc etc. If a player wants to lone-wolf and can't, they'll leave. You're playing the game because it's a game. If you wanted reality, you'd be playing a flight-sim or paintball, or *doing real stuff*.

-You should be able to understand the difference between realism and reality.

You know what's essential to victory? Building bunkers and having a dedicated engineer stick close to the commander. And I've done that time and again. And it's freaking boring after the first half a dozen maps, so *I don't do it*. No-one does unless you slap them repeatedly and loudly enough.

-I often set up a dedicated Engineers squad to assist the commander, I don't find it boring.

All that will happen is that people will continue doing whatever they want, say "gah, the balance on this mod is rubbish" and they'll leave. So you'll have a mod that only suits a very few people, end up with like 3 populated servers (check OPK to see this in action), and every game is exactly the same because every team is comprised of the same people using the same tactics because the entire community has shrunk to like 128 people spread across 12 timezones.

-Or maybe people will start to play as a team on a more frequent basis.

Am I saying that removing squad leader spawn will do this? Nope, as I said I can see pros and cons. What I am saying is that hyper-realism mods invariably suck and are totally unplayable, and only a group of hardcore fringe gamers bother with them. Push enough people away, and it snowballs. It's harder to find a populated server, when you get on everyone is too experienced so new players get shouted and killed, people leave. You end up with a ghost-town.

-That would be a community issue, not a SL spawn or teamwork issue.

Gameplay must always come first, and trying to pretend that gameplay and reality are synonymous is totally irrational and down-right wrong.

-You don't get it do you? The gameplay I want is realism. I did not download Project Reality so I could play vBF2 with the ability to kill people with one shot, I downloaded it because I want realism.

[Tartantyco]

-Oh, and lets not forget that most people spawn on RP anyway to pickup kits...

[Bleach]

don't u just hate when you see a enemy squad and u kill all but 1 or 2, you rush over to finish the squad off and there's a hole squad there !!

i think it would be a good idea to remove the squad leader spawn point, why you ask ?

i think this will put more emphasis on rally points:

how? well i have to admit some times when we attack a flag i think , well i cant be assed to set a rally point because if they die they will just spawn on me any ways.

Also would require more teamwork and use of retreating:

how? well , u attack a flag or position , u all get wiped out apart from SL'er and one other member, no reason to fall back , squad will appear with us in a second anyway.

ect..

what do u think ?

All i can say is kill FASTER then you wont have this problem...

[Metis-M]

I think the Devs will remove it, look what they all said.
And not because its bad spawn on SL, hole team spawn on apc destroy teamwork much more, only reason is because the devs want away from BF2.




@Tartantyco

I like to meet some of the board Heros like you in the game, which server do you play?

[Red Halibut]

I've had a little sleep on this, and I am coming to like the idea of removing or altering SL spawn.

Summarising what I have heard so far there are four basic ideas put forward:

1) No Change
2) Require X players to be alive and close to SL to allow SL spawn
3) Require SL to be more than X metres away from a CP
4) Remove SL Spawn altogether

The one that appeals to me the most is Number 2. This has a couple of advantages.

1) The "Ambush Scenario"
You wipe out three guys in a squad. OK so the SL and two others are still alive, but the other squadmembers have to Tab it back from either their RP or Base, severely denting their efficiency. Alternatively you wipe them all out except the SL. Well now he's on his own, with no support and you have blunted the Squad's Attack capability for a good few minutes in that area.

2) The Flag Capture Scenario
Squad Leader hides out, the rest of the guys rock up the the CP and get fragged by a good defence. Not enough left to respawn at SL so the CP cap is over.

IMHO That suggestion offers the best compromise. What do others think?

[EagleEyeLG]

You remove SL spawn you remove a huge fun factor. Yeah, we want realism, but it is a game.

[Top_Cat_AxJnAt]

Maps gentlemen MAPS! We still have a signficant number of maps that make placing rally points in a safe locatoins NEXT TO IMPOSSIBLE or difficult.


This debate ofcourse can be still had but any implamentation of features must wait untill all maps allow safe and easy rallypoint placement!

[tekkyy]

The problem with walking to battle is really just a map design issue.

When PR removed spawning on flags some people were upset. But before you know it we have rally points, apc spawns, bunkers, etc.

fuzzhead']i would agree with removing 100 meter radius on flag for rally, to make them easier to manage...

Just checking, you talking about friendly flags right?

I don't think we should allow a rally point near an enemy flag. Existing ones should be destroyed when the enemy takes the flag.

[Ace42]

-You seem to have missed the part where I say that 4/5th of the squads play fine,

You're right, I was concentrating on the bit where you said you were the only squad with a rally point out...

-Well, I did...

And yet you are spending money playing games in preference to receiving it for a more "realistic" experience.

-You should be able to understand the difference between realism and reality.

The difference is purely grammatical, reality and realism are synonymous according to Princeton's wordnet. Unless you are talking about an abstract philosophical concept related to solipsism or a 19th century french artistic movement...

-I often set up a dedicated Engineers squad to assist the commander, I don't find it boring.

Yah, I'd say that too if I were in your position. I wouldn't really mean it, though.

-Or maybe people will start to play as a team on a more frequent basis.

That is painfully naive. Punishing people who don't / won't play in a way that you prefer by wasting their time won't magically change their character or gameplay style or expectations. All it will do is frustrate them, many to the point of leaving. So you get people fanning out all over the place from main instead, like that's so much better. If people cared enough about spawning to change their gameplay style, they'd all be moving with the SL and protecting him anyway to preserve a convenient spawn. They generally don't, so it is ridiculous to think they'd protect a distant rally, or even care enough to set one up when they can be running into the action.

-That would be a community issue, not a SL spawn or teamwork issue.

It's not a sewing circle... Take away the community, you get botmatch, you get no mod. And the nature of the community is contingent on the nature of the game. Ergo, change the game, change the community, change the gameplay you find on the servers.

You don't get it do you? The gameplay I want is realism. I did not download Project Reality so I could play vBF2 with the ability to kill people with one shot, I downloaded it because I want realism.

Then you made a mistake. The BF2 engine isn't particularly capable of delivering realism, as the dozens of red suggestions on the forum indicate. I am positive there are dozens of alternative mods on dozens of alternative engines that can give you hyper-realism. I'd wager you try them and go "not for me", because the gameplay invariably sucks.

Realism is not intrinsically fun. If you TRULY wanted realism, you'd want one life per round, and if you're hit in a limb (enough to be incapacitated) then you're off the front line and can't play again. You'd get maybe 3 minutes of game time every hour. Medics would be totally redundant, as even if they patched a soldier up, he'd be out of the game indefinately due to the injuries, and mechanics likewise as people don't get out with a spanner in the middle of a firefight to patch up a near-totalled tank. There would be no commander assets, no bunkers, firebases, etc unless round-times lasted weeks, and there were teams of players sitting around doing nothing but spannering them up for a couple of hours and convoys of trucks driving them back and forwards.

And let us not forget that, objectively, players popping into existence next to a SL is EXACTLY as realistic as them popping into existence next to a bag.

You make the distinction between "reality" and "realism" - although there is no literal difference, from your attitude I think it is safe to say that your personal distinction is that "realism" is "just enough reality to suit you", and hang what anyone else finds playable.

Having read the preamble on the suggestions forum, I thought it was important to note the "making the game realistic, WHILE MAKING SURE IT STAYS FUN" (my emphasis) caveat. You seem to want to change a game into a simulator. Your choice, your preference, but really really fruitless given that the BF engine isn't as open as a whole load of other FPS ones that would allow a mod to be coded from the ground up, objectives and all. For all you saying "I don't want to play just BF2 with one-shots" - you seem to have over-looked the obvious fact that the game mechanic is pretty much identical - "take flags to stop ticket bleed" with a couple of twists added for originality's sake. That's not a realistic game model, it's a BF game-model designed to create a competitive game environment, not a "realistic objective-orientated combat simulation".

Operation Flashpoint would see to be more what you are looking for maybe...