Remove Squad Leader spawn point

[bosco_]

All i can say is kill FASTER then you wont have this problem...

Easy to say when you play against bots...

[indigo|blade]

Think about it from the other squads perspective, he may have set up a great ambush, got his squad to move togther, keep quiet etc etc. They open up on you killing all but the SL. 30 seconds later these 5 kills are meaningless as they have respawned an know exactly where you are. T

Listen, buddy, this argument carries no weight. If you recieved gameplay change from the devs each time you complained about having *almost* killed that tank, or *almost* killed that entire squad but only got 3 of them, this game would never have gotten past a 0.2 release.

A squadleader laying in the dirt as a spawn point is the easiest target in this game.

The main gameplay mode in this mod is called Assault And Secure.

Go secure the goddamned enemy position after you assault it.

[indigo|blade]

I've had a little sleep on this, and I am coming to like the idea of removing or altering SL spawn.

Summarising what I have heard so far there are four basic ideas put forward:

1) No Change
2) Require X players to be alive and close to SL to allow SL spawn
3) Require SL to be more than X metres away from a CP
4) Remove SL Spawn altogether

The one that appeals to me the most is Number 2. This has a couple of advantages.

1) The "Ambush Scenario"
You wipe out three guys in a squad. OK so the SL and two others are still alive, but the other squadmembers have to Tab it back from either their RP or Base, severely denting their efficiency. Alternatively you wipe them all out except the SL. Well now he's on his own, with no support and you have blunted the Squad's Attack capability for a good few minutes in that area.

2) The Flag Capture Scenario
Squad Leader hides out, the rest of the guys rock up the the CP and get fragged by a good defence. Not enough left to respawn at SL so the CP cap is over.

IMHO That suggestion offers the best compromise. What do others think?

Here's my biggest fear as far as spawning on SL's or not goes.

Bottom line---you are taking away a very useful resource for tactical decision making.

This leads to a more Linear, straight forward gameplay. I like to be pleasantly surprised when getting attacked by a wily SL from a direction I wasn't expecting, as opposed to knowing exactly where he is coming from because each map is a learned set of movements.

You're taking the shovel out of my sandbox!

[Biggaayal]

Hmmm,

As much as I like this idea, it takes PR in a direction that makes me less likely to play it.
"Why?", you may ask, "What's wrong with making it more 'realistic'?"

Well speaking personally, the problem is simple. I'm nearly 40, married with two kids and with limited gaming time. I cannot join an active PR "clan", because I can't commit time to showing up for "squad practice" and I certainly can't make myself available on a Saturday Afternoon for a clan match.

Removing SL spawn without some form of alternative being provided moves PR in a direction of requiring more teamwork. That is prima facie a good idea, but at some point a line gets crossed where playing on public servers (i.e. not as part of a clan team) becomes next to impossible because of the requirements for co-ordination.

If, or when, that happens then with regret I'll have to hang up my size 11s and go and play something else. Not because I want to, but because for me all the fun will have gone and I will just become increasingly frustrated with the lack of teamplay while not being able to do anything about it.

I stopped playing World of Warcraft when I reached level 60 because all the interesting content required being part of a 40-man RAID. These started at 7pm and because I couldn't commit, there was nothing left for me.

As a plea, for those of you punting the "In Reality you don't spawn in on your squad leader" line, While I agree with you, I would respond "In Reality, I only have the time to play after 9pm UK time, three days a week, and I have to hold down a job. I don't 'spawn' *anywhere" (despite my name ).

SO here's my summary: I don't have a "game" reason for objecting for the removal of SL spawns, but at some point in its relentless drive for reality PR is going to have to ask itself whether it wants to remain playable on public servers or whether it will really only be playable if you are in a clan with the time to devote to it. I *personally* believe we are getting close to that point.

Yeah well written, and spoken for many. In real life you get to fire your gun how many times a month? Being a soldier is a full-time career. Playing a bf2 mod isn't earning me money yet.

-Spawning of rucksacks in NOT more realistic then spawning of SL. It is the SPAWNING in itself that is unrealistic. What do you people want? A father and a mother class that spawn you realistically .
In all the stories about almost killing a squad and having them appear, all you have to do is add in a rally-point ....no difference at all, you can make the same argument.

I really think a lot of people in this thread should go buy ArmA, because it does what you people want a lot better then Project Reality ever will. In fact I don't understand why you haven't already, it is a very good game for the simulation-style player.

[Tartantyco]

You're right, I was concentrating on the bit where you said you were the only squad with a rally point out...

-Which shows that teamwork is not high on the list at the moment. This is not a point in your favor.

And yet you are spending money playing games in preference to receiving it for a more "realistic" experience.

-Ok, I want a realistic experience, I do not want to get shot in the face... And neither do I want to declare war on Sweden everytime I want a realistic experience.

The difference is purely grammatical, reality and realism are synonymous according to Princeton's wordnet. Unless you are talking about an abstract philosophical concept related to solipsism or a 19th century french artistic movement...

-Ok, let me clear it up for you; I want a game that mirrors reality as good as possible considering it's aims, I do not want reality.

Yah, I'd say that too if I were in your position. I wouldn't really mean it, though.

-But then again, you probably haven't served as a Combat Engineer either... And I do mean it.

That is painfully naive. Punishing people who don't / won't play in a way that you prefer by wasting their time won't magically change their character or gameplay style or expectations. All it will do is frustrate them, many to the point of leaving. So you get people fanning out all over the place from main instead, like that's so much better. If people cared enough about spawning to change their gameplay style, they'd all be moving with the SL and protecting him anyway to preserve a convenient spawn. They generally don't, so it is ridiculous to think they'd protect a distant rally, or even care enough to set one up when they can be running into the action.

-It is not punishment, it is reward for teamwork. And I don't care if people who want to play vBF2 leave the mod because this mod is not meant for them. How do you not get this? PR is a niche mod, the niche being REALISM. It's in the name, it can't get any less clear than that. If you don't want realistic gameplay then go find another mod. Go play POE or something.

It's not a sewing circle... Take away the community, you get botmatch, you get no mod. And the nature of the community is contingent on the nature of the game. Ergo, change the game, change the community, change the gameplay you find on the servers.

-Thank you for completely misunderstanding what I said.

Then you made a mistake. The BF2 engine isn't particularly capable of delivering realism, as the dozens of red suggestions on the forum indicate. I am positive there are dozens of alternative mods on dozens of alternative engines that can give you hyper-realism. I'd wager you try them and go "not for me", because the gameplay invariably sucks.

-I'm sure there are, but here I am an it says Project Reality on the dogtags...

Realism is not intrinsically fun. If you TRULY wanted realism, you'd want one life per round, and if you're hit in a limb (enough to be incapacitated) then you're off the front line and can't play again. You'd get maybe 3 minutes of game time every hour. Medics would be totally redundant, as even if they patched a soldier up, he'd be out of the game indefinately due to the injuries, and mechanics likewise as people don't get out with a spanner in the middle of a firefight to patch up a near-totalled tank. There would be no commander assets, no bunkers, firebases, etc unless round-times lasted weeks, and there were teams of players sitting around doing nothing but spannering them up for a couple of hours and convoys of trucks driving them back and forwards.

-We'll make that when we get the Matrix up and running. Meanwhile, back here in the real world there are limitations. We can't cram thousands of people into a PR server and so a significantly smaller number of people must simulate a large scale battle with combined arms and so your blah-blah-blah'ing is of little significance here. And if you're wondering, I don't want a perfect simulation of reality where I have to go take a **** every now and then(Though it might actually be interesting to try out such a simulation once in a while... No, not a "take a ****" simulation...), I want a game where teamwork is paramount, where tactics actually have an impact, that is what I want. Get it?

And let us not forget that, objectively, players popping into existence next to a SL is EXACTLY as realistic as them popping into existence next to a bag.

-It's called simulation, you don't actually have to start off from childhood, grow up, join the army, then get back to the action...

You make the distinction between "reality" and "realism" - although there is no literal difference, from your attitude I think it is safe to say that your personal distinction is that "realism" is "just enough reality to suit you", and hang what anyone else finds playable.

-Now you're catching on.

Having read the preamble on the suggestions forum, I thought it was important to note the "making the game realistic, WHILE MAKING SURE IT STAYS FUN" (my emphasis) caveat. You seem to want to change a game into a simulator. Your choice, your preference, but really really fruitless given that the BF engine isn't as open as a whole load of other FPS ones that would allow a mod to be coded from the ground up, objectives and all. For all you saying "I don't want to play just BF2 with one-shots" - you seem to have over-looked the obvious fact that the game mechanic is pretty much identical - "take flags to stop ticket bleed" with a couple of twists added for originality's sake. That's not a realistic game model, it's a BF game-model designed to create a competitive game environment, not a "realistic objective-orientated combat simulation".

-And I agree with alot of what you say but they are all things I'd like to see changed/improved and so have no bearing on this topic in my case.

Operation Flashpoint would see to be more what you are looking for maybe...

-And I have that too...

[willgar]

interesting thread to while away the work day..ACE42 (although i dont agree with all he said) makes a very eloquant argument that counters the "we want more realism" argument that is often used here.

The one life per round debate has cropped up here before as has the transport to the front, reinforment wave spawning and a whole bunch of suggestion aimed at increasing realism. Operation Flashpoint is allegedly more realistic but gameplay wise it is not much fun. Anyhooo - keep the ball rolling chaps, i need more distraction.

How about some more hybrid ideas:
You can only spawn on rally if your squad leader is within 50m of the rally and not within a flag zone. sounds confusing?.. well think of it this way, 6 man squads hits a flag - 3 get killed. The SL assuming he is still alive needs to go back to the rally area to get more "reinforcments". If the squad leader dies, he has to spawn at a rear base....Is this a good idea - maybe

Remove SL spawn but allow squads to use any rally point on the map. Is this a good idea - i have no idea

No SL spawn but instead rally point can only be deployed within 300m of a friendly flag, another squads rally or command center. If the connecting flag/commander center/alternate squad rally is lost - the rally is destroyed. This simulates a kinda of supply chain and would make defending / losing a command center / rally and important mission. Is this a good idea - your guess is as good as mine

With enough time, i imagine the list of permutations is endless...ahh.. back to work...

[fuzzhead]

Why does squad leader spawning ruin teamwork?:

Squad Leader spawning is a touchy subject in the Project Reality community. Some players think that if its removed it will benefit the mod with slower, more realistic gameplay while others believe it will ruin the current team orientated gameplay and kill the mod. My opinion is that Squad Leader spawning only hurts teamwork and with its removal the mod can move into far more interesting territory.

The first reason that comes to mind to make me think that squad leader spawning is destroying teamwork is obvious: it hyper accelerates the battles and creates alot more instant, fast paced action. Some might think this is a good thing, but if you look at it closer its not so good for tactical gaming. An assault on a position could take several 'waves' to finally kill the squad leader, creating needless firefights that are won and lost dependant on killing 1 player. Trying to approach this in a tactical manner is just an exercise in futility and frustration. The best thing you can do is get your best player, and tell him to go kill them all in the back and look for where they are spawning, then kill the guy spawning them. Instead of approaching the situation in a realistically tactical way, you are approaching the situation in an very videogame like fashion, which is not what PR is about. With the current setup with squad leader spawning, approaching a CQB situation in any kind of tactical manner is just asking to get killed. This is exactly what I do as well as others do in a CQB situation: send out a man you know who is good at not dying, and find their squad leader. Have everyone else run around like crazy to confuse the enemy while your one good man does the job. This is NOT what I call good for gameplay. Instead I would like to approach CQB situation as in real life: clearing an area piece by piece with lots of firepower, covering sectors, 'slicing the pie', etc. If I wanted to run around CQB in a hyper-active frantic like fashion I would be playing one of the HUNDREDS of other FPS games out there. However I think myself and alot of other PR players and military veterans want to play PR in a realistic fashion, and things like squad leader spawning are really not promoting that style of play.

The second reason squad leader spawning is bad for gameplay is that it takes away from the supply lines element. Unless your squad leader is knocked out there is NO reason to retreat or fallback. Squad members can spawn with ammo and health and have no regard for where the actual frontlines of the battle are. Often times this will segregate the squad into some area far from the current objectives, and more than likely the squad leader could not care less. However because its basically a 'free' spawn point for the squad members, they will continue spawning there even if its tactically a bad decision. Falling back, re-grouping, etc is very much a huge part in modern warfare. In PR right now there is not many times if ever I have seen another squad do this. Why should they? Well with removing Squad Leader spawning it will become a tactic of necesity, which I think is a great thing! Breaking the enemy and taking out half their squad might make them reconsider their attack, and have them pull back to regroup. Would you not want more realistic behaviour if it was feasible to do?

The third reason squad lead spawning is bad for gameplay is that it negates the purpose of the transports for your team. APC's, Helicopters and Jeeps are really only of value during the starting of a new map, after that you will never need to transport yourself to the frontline if your squad leader stays alive. If this is the approach you want to take, then we might as well take out most forms of transport from the maps as they are for the most part, very underused because majority of time if squads know what they are doing, they will be able to stay close to where they need to be with squad leader spawning. If it was removed, something like your rallypoint being discovered and destroyed, it would be a big deal for your squad and you would have to change your strategy to accomodate the set back. Right now players LOVE to play as the transport element, but because of all the different choices to spawn, they are of little tactical value. Would you not want to give some value to these players, increasing the depth of gameplay and the teamwork needed to accomplish a mission?

The fourth reason is a major one for building deeper tactical gameplay, and it is CONSEQUENCE for actions in game. Much like doubling spawntimes for all players, removing the spawnpoint on squad leaders will make the consequences for dying alot more apparent. If your squad makes smart tactical decisions, you will be rewarded and will notice high success rate on assaults and defenses. If your tactical decisions were poor or you were not even thinking at all when making an action, your failure will be much more noticeable. The overall pacing of the game will be much more fluid. If your team suffered a catastrophic failure, the enemy force wil have a huge advantage and the round will probably come to an end much quicker. There will be much less stalemates where 2 squads are fighting each other in the same area for 20 minutes, just sending endless swarms of men at each other with no real organisation. Well this might still happen, an organised force will be of much more effectiveness than it is currently. Do you not want players to be rewarded for excellent teamwork and the players who use smacktard behaviour punished for their thoughtless strategy?

The difference of gameplay without squad leader spawning will IMMEDIATELY be apparent and I think it will be very positive. For example there will be much more clearly defined 'front lines'. And when your squad is 'behind the line' you will notice it big time. Squad members wont be nearly as foolish with their life, knowing that a quick spawn on the ol SL is no longer an option. The old tactic of 'well im not with you guys so ill just suicide and spawn on you SL' will no longer be a tactic that people regularly use. When assaulting a position you wont feel completely worthless cause you killed 5 enemy, but you know you didnt get the one important guy so your entire assault was pointless 30 seconds later...

I have seen first hand what this does to squads in game. I have joined squads where the squad leader and every squad member was completely switched on and knew their stuff about military tactics. But their bested by other squads who are not really using any kind of tactics but play the damn game too much and know how to 'cheat' the dynamics of the game, stuff like squad leader spawning really cheapens the whole experience. So instead of using real world tactics your forced to say fuck it and tard rush because you know that tactic will get the job done (albeit with a ton of more casualties).

Well I could type about this topic all day but I see its clear there are two divided sides that wont change their mind so Ill just end with this:

Project Reality has the potential to be at the forefront of realistic gaming, but right now it still has some growing problems. Ask any fan of Real tactical first person shooters what the problem with PR is and they will likely tell you something like: the gameplay is still too fast paced with little consequence for death. If a mod like Desert Conflict can consider removing Squad Leader spawning surely a mod based on realism can.

[AnRK]

Do people really have to come up with these bloody "uber" realism comments every time the time anytime anyone suggests something to make the gameplay more realistic?

"I think it makes the gameplay too spammy"
"So you want to spend half your time online not even firing your weapon"
etc

It's completely retarded and not at all constructive because it's obvious that's not what people mean.


Anyway, I don't really get why people think the squad leader surviving to be used as a rally is so easily remedied, it's no harder or easier then finding a RP to be honest. I don't see why people think if the squad leader wasn't taken out then their opponents somehow deserve the wrath of a full squad either, a good squad leader would simply scuttle back to his RP to join up with their squad or regroup somewhere else.

The idea that spawning on squad leader creates teamplay is entirely false I don't see why people think this. The only reason I can think of is that people simply use the spawn point and, assuming the Squad Leaders in a tactical position, then go on to kill whatever may be in the area. As opposed to spawning at a main base where these kinda morons would spread out a little more in the pursuit of a nice place to hide with whatever long range equipment they may have acquired. Obviously removing the SL spawn won't fix this problem but in a way it's just a way of ignoring the problem.

I rarely lead a squad that doesn't stick together, not in the sense that I'm a great squad leader or anything, but if you offer a little advice to the large influx of people who have defected from BF2 they seem to respond positively and seem to enjoy the greater amount of teamplay. Generally when people see the benefits of working together they will continue to do so. Obviously there will still a few Rambos about but theres nothing that can be done about this and they'll get bored eventually, or get to the point where their so good with a sniper rifle they'll actually become useful, which is pretty unlikely...

With regards to peoples concerns about walking, the Devs aren't stupid, they play the game too, and I'm sure they have the same enthusiasm for walking 2 digital kilometers to get shot as much as anyone else. If they were to go through with this they would make transport vehicles easier to get hold of and make them more widely available across the map. Once you've got a few bunkers and such down it ceases to be a problem anyway.

[Rick_the_new_guy]

/Pounds tiny fist on desk.

Outstanding read fuzzhead!

fuzzhead, your diplomatic skills and reasoning keep getting better and better.

I agree, it would slow down the pace of the battles. Something I would like to see. I totally agree that it makes the transport personnel that much more needed and respected (teamwork to the extreme).

Some things to add. Much like how the ammo system has been redone because of the near dozon or so spots you can get ammo from (not seen in BF2v), the SL spawning system MAY need to be relooked.

The following are spawn points not seen in BF2v.

1. Co Truck. (some what placed in the rear, can be placed on both sides of the battle lines.)
2. APC. ( placed on both sides of the battle lines.)
3. Bunker. ( Placed in friendly CPs.)
4. Firebase. ( placed away from a CP. Most likely in enemy terrriorty)
5. Rally Point. (placed away from any CP)

The top two things I like the most about deep sixing the SL spawn point:

1. It gets squads working together so infantry platoons can be established. Force in numbers, you get the idea. The Firebase/ APC / Support truck helps make this happen.

2. It changes the entire dynamic of the SL. Formations, assaults, you get the idea. Granted, the Rally Point that was introduced in .5 allowed SLs to take point.
It also freshens up the game itself, just my O.

BTW, I have only read page 13 of this thread.

[gazzthompson]

at the moment squad leaders job when attacking a flag is to hide in a corner and let his squad spawn on him , how stupid is that ? squad leaders need to LEAD not sit there , they need to be fighting aswell.

[fuzzhead]

at the moment squad leaders job when attacking a flag is to hide in a corner and let his squad spawn on him , how stupid is that ? squad leaders need to LEAD not sit there , they need to be fighting aswell.

its sad, but true. I play this mod more than most players, and if I really want to 'win', this is the tactic I will use cause I know it gets the job done.

I rarely use this tactic because its prety ghey, but I know if I want to take a CP, there is no better way to do it than this.

just get AtlantaFalcons and MJPatterson to spawn on me, and they will have a few boatloads of corpses mopped out in a matter of minutes, and if they happen to die, no worries cause Ill be a spawnpoint for them to continue the slaughter where they left off, and they will know the exact location of the poor ******* who killed them.

[causticbeat]

I say if SL spawning is removed, so should medics. viva la Red Orchestra

[Mongolian_dude]

I have to say, this idea scares the hebie-jebies out of me. It will definitely be a frustrating and difficult thing to addapt to. However, i do agree with it.

For one, it will stop those situations where you hunt down an RP, then you know you have to go get the SL because hes gonna spawn people on him and lay another one, right after.

Also, it will stops those moments where you attack an SL, one way or another, and 5 guys jump out of his helmet and lay you to waste.

Also, it will stop those Pilot-SL insertions, where an SL jumps out of a plane and the squad spawns on him (no offense the RFAD, GoO, C4. That was real snazzy).

...mongol...

[SevenOfDiamonds]

I really think a lot of people in this thread should go buy ArmA, because it does what you people want a lot better then Project Reality ever will.

If a squad want to fly across a map to a distant city.Land. Get out. Scope out the city watch all the little people move around and the tanks. Then right as they start to move have some crasy bot shoot you ( not your friends you) in the head and die and have nothing you can do but wait till everyone comes back or take the 10 minute trek back to them. Oh and then right as you get there they die.

I love that game.

[indigo|blade]

Well thought out post fuzz, here's my response:

An assault on a position could take several 'waves' to finally kill the squad leader, creating needless firefights that are won and lost dependant on killing 1 player. Trying to approach this in a tactical manner is just an exercise in futility and frustration. The best thing you can do is get your best player, and tell him to go kill them all in the back and look for where they are spawning, then kill the guy spawning them. Instead of approaching the situation in a realistically tactical way, you are approaching the situation in an very videogame like fashion, which is not what PR is about. With the current setup with squad leader spawning, approaching a CQB situation in any kind of tactical manner is just asking to get killed. This is exactly what I do as well as others do in a CQB situation: send out a man you know who is good at not dying, and find their squad leader. Have everyone else run around like crazy to confuse the enemy while your one good man does the job

I have never given this order. You seriously tell one man to go hunting a SL while the rest of your men bumble around making noise as a distraction? No wonder you are so frustrated! This seems like a gigantic waste of resources to me.

However I think myself and alot of other PR players and military veterans want to play PR in a realistic fashion, and things like squad leader spawning are really not promoting that style of play.

I want to play PR in an environment that promotes teamplay, with roots in realistic modern day tactics and manuever. SL spawning promotes my squad working with me, and in addition gives my(as SL) place on the battlefield HUGE importance.

Unless your squad leader is knocked out there is NO reason to retreat or fallback.

There are many times my squad(or at least a part of it) has fallen back to support another CP, or re-capture one that has been "greyed" behind our lines. The AAS game system promotes this ebb and flow of battle, I love it!

However because its basically a 'free' spawn point for the squad members, they will continue spawning there even if its tactically a bad decision. Falling back, re-grouping, etc is very much a huge part in modern warfare. In PR right now there is not many times if ever I have seen another squad do this. Why should they? Well with removing Squad Leader spawning it will become a tactic of necesity, which I think is a great thing! Breaking the enemy and taking out half their squad might make them reconsider their attack, and have them pull back to regroup. Would you not want more realistic behaviour if it was feasible to do?

Unfortunately BF2 will never be able to impose Morale Consequences on human beings playing a computer game. Again, my squads regularly fall back to re-secure objectives in our "backcourt", this happens as the enemy pushes forward. However, in my experience, many games my squad spends half of the game defending one CP, so that our frontline remains the frontline. That's ok with me.

To answer your question, Yes! I don't think removing SL spawning will achieve that goal.

The third reason squad lead spawning is bad for gameplay is that it negates the purpose of the transports for your team. APC's, Helicopters and Jeeps are really only of value during the starting of a new map, after that you will never need to transport yourself to the frontline if your squad leader stays alive.

On Mestia for example, we don't even use the transports at the outset of the game. We take off on foot so we don't give our position/objective away. On Op Phoenix, however, there aren't enough transports for the US side yet. This map isn't ready for v0.6 yet IMO.

Right now players LOVE to play as the transport element, but because of all the different choices to spawn, they are of little tactical value. Would you not want to give some value to these players, increasing the depth of gameplay and the teamwork needed to accomplish a mission?

I have yet to find a player that LOVED to play the transport guy. Usually after the driving's done they join the squad and its objective at that time.

The fourth reason is a major one for building deeper tactical gameplay, and it is CONSEQUENCE for actions in game. Much like doubling spawntimes for all players, removing the spawnpoint on squad leaders will make the consequences for dying alot more apparent. If your squad makes smart tactical decisions, you will be rewarded and will notice high success rate on assaults and defenses. If your tactical decisions were poor or you were not even thinking at all when making an action, your failure will be much more noticeable.

I understand your intent here fuzz, but I think having the tactical option(of spawning on the SL) far out weighs the slap on the hand received by not being able to.

You could make the most tactically ingenious decision on the map, but one HAT rocket to the middle of your squad and it all goes to hell in one second. These things happen, and can be extremely frustrating if you have to start over from the Main Base. Having RP's and a SL to spawn on helps to take away some of the initial impact of "shit happens" moments. IMO, the extra spawn times accomplish this goal.

[indigo|blade]

at the moment squad leaders job when attacking a flag is to hide in a corner and let his squad spawn on him , how stupid is that ? squad leaders need to LEAD not sit there , they need to be fighting aswell.

Wow. So the SL should run in all Rambo style leading from the front eh? That is tragic allocation of current resources if you ask me.

No wonder you don't want folks to spawn on their SL.

[IAJTHOMAS]

Wow. So the SL should run in all Rambo style leading from the front eh? That is tragic allocation of current resources if you ask me.

No wonder you don't want folks to spawn on their SL.

Just because a person says he doesn't want one thing, doesn't mean he wants the polar opposite.

[indigo|blade]

The guy just said, and I quote:

squad leaders need to LEAD not sit there , they need to be fighting aswell.

LEAD + fighting aswell = RAMBO

[Tartantyco]

indigo|blade + thinking = Disaster.

[gazzthompson]

The guy just said, and I quote:



LEAD + fighting aswell = RAMBO

how did u get that ? lead + fighting = should be what leaders do.

it shouldn't be , "u attack there i sit here and hide" it should be "lets go boys !!" , "u go there" "u follow me " "u 2 go around there" "the other 2 follow me" "FRAG OUT !" lead by example , especially with the recent boom of newer players.