Grenade launchers

Post by **Happy** » 2005-12-01 04:03

The problem is that DICE made the assault class the basic riflemen when actually not all of them have M203's.

{GD}Snake13 · Post by **{GD}Snake13** » 2005-12-01 04:23

I would say make the accuracy horrible unless the player stands still and lets the reticle shrink (think AT weapons in FH)

Rg · Post by Rg » 2005-12-01 04:26

Reticle shrink as in the longer you stay still the more accurate your shot is?
If you can apply that in the BF2 engine, that is a must.

Figisaacnewton · Post by **Figisaacnewton** » 2005-12-01 05:52

Didn't read whole thread, and don't expect me to have.

I say we need to revamp ALL the classes, as well as adding a time in flight detonator eventually.

7 classes would be:
(all classes have knives)

Grenadier: Rifle w/GL, 1 or 2 smoke nades (either thrown or launched)
Rifleman: Rifle, 3 or 4 frag nades,
Autorifleman: Autorifle, Ammobag, 4 smoke nades
STA Sniper/ (equilivant for other countries): Sniper rifle, 2 frag nades, sidearm
Corpsman/ Medic: Rifle, medic bag, 1 or 2 frag nades
Combat Engineer: Carbine, c4, claymore mines
Anti Tank: AT rocket, sidearm, AT mines

not 100% sure that mines should go to those classes, but whatever, something like that. and if it was possible to make the spawns of say rifleman and medic switch between carbine and rifle everyonce in a while, thatd be cool.

my 2 cents

Lifetaker · Post by **Lifetaker** » 2005-12-01 06:02

I'm gonna have to mostly agree with Gunfighter on this one. Couple things though. I'm not sure what weapons you are talking about that aren't implemented by modern combatants. I understand that standard U.S. riflemen don't get to take a G3 onto the field and U.S. medics don't use stanard British firearms, but I do have a couple of friends who are in different branches of Special Forces and I happen to know that their armoury is far less limited. They can even use their own private weapons provided they have been peoperly cleared. Also it is certainly not uncommon for one or more Spec Ops guys to get attached to a stanard infantry unit. There is the issue of balance, though. The U.S. weapons in "reality" outgun most of the competitors offered in the game. If I'm on the Chinese team and I have to use one of those pieces of garbage, I'm pretty bummed. But if I can use my G36, G3 or PK, I can even the playing field a bit. I myself generally play as assault or support, and when I'm assault I usually use my G3 (no GL) instead of the pea shooter... Because it's a game and I can. I would be for getting rid of GLs if there was some compensation, like optics. Throw an ACOG on the m16 and it'll be a more formidable weapon.

The timed option for grenades I think is the best for now, but I'm a bit confused. Even though they're timed, the explosion will still be determined by impact right? If this is the case, I don't think people should have much to ***** about after that. It eliminates the issue of being shot from too close, cause you should be able to get outside of the kill radius in that time, and people will have to prepare a bit more when employing them for anti vehicle usage. I do like the idea of not being able to use the GL without bringing up the sights. I don't know if that's possible with the engine being as such.

One more thing. Jumping and shooting period should definitely be removed, if possible.

Otherwise, I dig the mod. Bummed I can't play till Friday or Saturday, but get that fix up and I'll be there. Thanks for the hard work and effort, hope to kill and be killed by everyone soon.

Gunfighter34ID · Post by **Gunfighter34ID** » 2005-12-01 06:35

I agree with you, Special Forces is a whole new ballgame, but if we're looking at modeling this on conventional infantry forces very little of that is going to be in there. Even when I was in you could take personal weapons on deployment if you got it cleared through the chain of command, but it was such a pain in the *** that it never really happened. I had buddies who were DATs who carried their own sidearms instead of M9s and it was never really questioned since they were also 9mmP, but as a general rule you carry what you're issued and like it...or not...you're dealing with it.

I think the main problem is that the weapons as seen in vanilla BF2 are just garbage. If you make them halfway lethal and address some accuracy issues with some of them you're not going to have to worry about dumping whole magazines into guys to get enough shots to take them down. Right now it's like hunting rhino with a Daisy BB gun.

And yes, comparatively the Chink weapons are garbage, but they're functional enough. The PRMM guys could easily make the decision to just give them AKMs (Type 56s) and then they'd be assured of having effective small arms, but their new bullpups that are featured in the game are .223 caliber and pack pretty much the same punch as our small arms. The 7.62x39 used by most everyone in the Middle East packs MORE stopping power than our M855 ball from our small arms, if you're talking about pure killing power.

And I don't remember ever having a single SF guy attached to any unit I was ever in, either in MI or in the infantry. I'm not arguing with you, as that was years ago and things might have changed and maybe it just never happened to me. I have heard of A detachments getting assigned to conventional units, my buddy is an infantry platoon leader in Afghanistan right now and his battalion has a couple of A teams with them as of about three weeks ago, but never individuals. I like the weapon variety a lot, too, but I think at least early on they need to look to getting the basic stuff right, and then in the future they can add in some SF-oriented content, as one of the devs has already suggested they might do, but it would be more map-based.

I also think it would be a nice touch to replace the G3 with the M14 if they can come up with a model for it and work it into the game. I know it's possible because Tactical War has put a FA-MAS in there, but I guess we'll just have to see what goodies PRMM has in store for us. I know they're working on adding in the Brits at a later date, as well, and I'm looking forward to that.

GRB · Post by **GRB** » 2005-12-01 18:54

Thanks for clearing that up for me Paladin. Hey, if the grenades will behave like they are supposed to with the timed delay, I say go for it!

Wish I could change my vote. But then again, I think maybe a conjuction of the Decrease in Accuracy and the Timed Delay would set the grenade launcher off just right.

(is it just me, or are people taking this to a much further extent than is neccissary?)

GABBA · Post by **GABBA** » 2005-12-01 20:45

What he said.....only the chosen one's get the nade launcher.

{GD}geogob · Post by **{GD}geogob** » 2005-12-01 21:08

*types in console: "iamthechosenone"*

TweedleDee · Post by **TweedleDee** » 2005-12-02 00:19

they way forgotten hope got rid of the rifle grenade noob tubes was they made it take a long time to fire from when u clicked the mouse button. i guess it was a timed delay. u would try to fire the grenade, then u would have to wait something like 3 - 5 seconds before it actually came out and fired. bingo, no more noob tubes.
oh yeah and it doesnt matter that im talking about a WW2 game, in video games its all the same thing. its all about gameplay.

Rg · Post by Rg » 2005-12-02 00:21

^that's a good idea.

Post by **BrokenArrow** » 2005-12-02 01:49

Not only that, they gave it sway and it took forever to get the recticle small enough to aim it properly. The time you had to wait for it to fire is less than that though id say 2 seconds or so.

Tezzer05 · Post by **Tezzer05** » 2005-12-02 21:14

okay first off, NO NOT THE TIMED DELAY!!!! ITS TH MOST UNREALISTIC AND CRAPPY THING THAT CAN BE DONE!

and second i chose "other" as i want the splant to be made BIGGER so noob tubing cant be done and i want range decreased so they are a bit more like air burst nades sept you cant tell where they gonna blow up so no shooting round walls can be done and that will stop popele from shooting like 4 or 5 popel down the street cause of the bigger splash range.

Gunfighter34ID · Post by **Gunfighter34ID** » 2005-12-02 22:06

Tezzer05 wrote:okay first off, NO NOT THE TIMED DELAY!!!! ITS TH MOST UNREALISTIC AND CRAPPY THING THAT CAN BE DONE!

and second i chose "other" as i want the splant to be made BIGGER so noob tubing cant be done and i want range decreased so they are a bit more like air burst nades sept you cant tell where they gonna blow up so no shooting round walls can be done and that will stop popele from shooting like 4 or 5 popel down the street cause of the bigger splash range.

Speaking of unrealistic...

Cerberus · Post by **Cerberus** » 2005-12-02 22:22

Do 40mm HE grenades fired from M203s even have a delay?

Eddie Baker · Post by **Eddie Baker** » 2005-12-02 22:42

Cerberus wrote:Do 40mm HE grenades fired from M203s even have a delay?

There used to be an airburst or "bounding" HE round for the M203 that would spring upwards on impact with the ground prior to exploding. Otherwise, the only delay they have is a distance delay to arm.

Gunfighter34ID · Post by **Gunfighter34ID** » 2005-12-02 23:28

'Cerberus' wrote:Do 40mm HE grenades fired from M203s even have a delay?

'[R-DEV wrote:Eddie Baker']There used to be an airburst or "bounding" HE round for the M203 that would spring upwards on impact with the ground prior to exploding. Otherwise, the only delay they have is a distance delay to arm.

Right, there was a bounding-type grenade for it that I guess was issued somewhere at some point but I never saw one and I couldn't tell you the nomenclature. Like Eddie said, I think it worked on the same principle as the M16 AP mine (aka, "bouncing betty") in that it popped up to about waist height before exploding, but I can't really guarantee that's exactly right.

The primary rounds, M433 HEDP (round-nosed, gold tip) and M406 HE (bullet-shaped, gold tip), are armed by the spin imparted on them in flight. The M203 is rifled, not smoothbore. I think it takes three or four revolutions for one of these grenades to arm, which comes out to about 15 meters, though if you look in the TM for the M203 it's going to tell you something like "14 to 27 meters". In other words, it's not a fixed distance.

There were also rounds for it (M381?, others?) that armed in as little as 2-3 meters. Never used 'em, wouldn't want to. Probably useful for MOUT, though, but that arming distance seems awfully dangerous.

The reason some of us were suggesting time delays is that one of the Devs said that distance delays were not possible because of the way the grenades were coded, so I suggested 1/5th of a second arming time because given the muzzle velocity of an M203 that's about how long it would take a grenade to go about 15 meters. Others suggested other delays in order to try and get rid of the problem--exploit, really--where guys would fire thumpers right at their own feet with FF off, killing the enemy but not hurting themselves, or, just as bad, kamikaziing themselves via the same process to get rid of enemies on their flags, etc.

Hope that helps.

{GD}geogob · Post by **{GD}geogob** » 2005-12-02 23:36

The primary rounds, M433 HEDP (round-nosed, gold tip) and M406 HE (bullet-shaped, gold tip), are armed by the spin imparted on them in flight. The M203 is rifled, not smoothbore. I think it takes three or four revolutions for one of these grenades to arm, which comes out to about 15 meters, though if you look in the TM for the M203 it's going to tell you something like "14 to 27 meters". In other words, it's not a fixed distance.

Yeah, that's about what I said a few pages back. I have the details of the arming mechanism somewhere, but haven't found it. I was especially looking for how many turns it need to activate and the rotation rate (which is a more accurate way to choose a time delay then distance vs speed).

I would say that from one shot to the other the spin rate will be pretty much unchanged (at least it sounds like a good approximation). Since it arms after a fixed numbers of turns, a time delay would be quite good to model this effect. I guess it would be somewhere around 1.5 sec, but I still have to find out the reference I'm looking for.

Lifetaker · Post by **Lifetaker** » 2005-12-02 23:38

Yeah, the M14. I'm definitely with that. Optics please. Or the SOCOM 16. Either one. While you're at it, hows about the M240 instead of the PKM? Or at least make the M249 more effective from the prone. 1100 rpm? That's devestating, and when they don't jam, pretty damn accurate.

I also thought of one more thing. Not to kick a dead horse or anything, but on Soldier of Fortune (not exactly a realistic shooter but bear with me) when you used your GL it automatically realoaded so as to increase the time between switching from GL to rifle. I don't know if it's possible with this engine, but it did make people think twice about using it, because if you missed it took a bit until you could effectively fire again. Does this make any sense? Just an idea. I'm still for the time delay if the grenades don't just explode after 2 or 3 seconds. They actually have to make contact.

Grenade launchers

How to fix the grenade launchers?

Forgotten hope example again